Technique Fixations

originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Marshall Manning:
In other words, I won't turn down a Clape/Verset/Allemand Cornas shootout any time soon!

Marshall
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Well, if you can make it to NC next Saturday, it's on.

As for Clape, the 1995 was the last vintage I bought as I didn't really take to subsequent vintages. Verset I last bought in 1999 simply because of availability.

I actually think that Cornas doesn't make really old bones in general. We'll see about some more recent vintages, but the 1988s and 1991s are as good as they are going to get. I've had my last 88s from Clape and Verset and didn't have many 91s, so they're gone.

The vintage we'll do is 1995, and John will report on it. It would be nice to get some Juge or Voge for comparison. John?
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Are we talking about 2 days from now, or a week from Saturday? You know we are only a brief non-stop flight apart...

I'd be happy to send you Voge in alternate vintages for your contemplation, but I've no '95's to pass along. I'll be very interested to hear about the Allemands (modernist, really?) from 1995, as it is one of the few vintages of that era, I've not come across.
 
originally posted by Cliff:
originally posted by Hoke:
"But to call "spoof" seems to me to connote tricked-out manipulation of a technical sort. The individual manipulations might not necessarily lead one to deem a wine spoofulated, but if a bunch of technical tricks were used with the intent of creating a rich, fruit-forward, "hedonistic" style, the term would fit."

Would the same apply if a bunch of technical tricks were used with the intent of creating a lean, mineral and acid-driven, fruit-supressed, 'anti-hedonistic' style (assuming you're assuming that hedonistic can only refer to gobby stuff; some hedonists may differ with you, a hedonistic masochist, for instance. Or Kane.)?

Relativistically speaking, I mean. Or irrelativistically speaking.
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If the technical tricks are used with the intent of creating a lean, mineral, acid-driven wine, I might call the style "manipulated" but not "spoofy." Spoofulated wines are trying to recapture the "hedonistic," "gob-centric" aesthetic of the archtypal 1947 Cheval Blanc, or some such. There are all sorts of manipulations, as in the carbonic cases in the south, that may produce wines that seem contrived and out of step with the local traditions and yet still not earn "spoofulated" status.
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Oh. Okay.

Then it's obvious that to continue this discussion I need to drink a bottle of 1947 Cheval Blanc. Do you have one handy?

But meanwhile, just to clarify (hah), would Chateauneuf-du-Pape that is thermovinified be considered "natural", "manipulated", or "spoofulated"?
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
Beaucastel.
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All natural of course.

Except for (or including?) the brett.

Geez these categories are tough.
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But Beaucastel flash heats the must in a cooker prior to fermentation.

Sounds like a form of manipulation/spoofulation to me.

Wait, maybe you mean he uses green energy to flash heat the wine? Then it would be "natural"!
 
originally posted by Hoke:
originally posted by Cliff:
originally posted by Hoke:
"But to call "spoof" seems to me to connote tricked-out manipulation of a technical sort. The individual manipulations might not necessarily lead one to deem a wine spoofulated, but if a bunch of technical tricks were used with the intent of creating a rich, fruit-forward, "hedonistic" style, the term would fit."

Would the same apply if a bunch of technical tricks were used with the intent of creating a lean, mineral and acid-driven, fruit-supressed, 'anti-hedonistic' style (assuming you're assuming that hedonistic can only refer to gobby stuff; some hedonists may differ with you, a hedonistic masochist, for instance. Or Kane.)?

Relativistically speaking, I mean. Or irrelativistically speaking.
Click to expand...

If the technical tricks are used with the intent of creating a lean, mineral, acid-driven wine, I might call the style "manipulated" but not "spoofy." Spoofulated wines are trying to recapture the "hedonistic," "gob-centric" aesthetic of the archtypal 1947 Cheval Blanc, or some such. There are all sorts of manipulations, as in the carbonic cases in the south, that may produce wines that seem contrived and out of step with the local traditions and yet still not earn "spoofulated" status.
Click to expand...

Oh. Okay.

Then it's obvious that to continue this discussion I need to drink a bottle of 1947 Cheval Blanc. Do you have one handy?

But meanwhile, just to clarify (hah), would Chateauneuf-du-Pape that is thermovinified be considered "natural", "manipulated", or "spoofulated"?
Click to expand...

Alas, no, no '47 CB on hand. Perhaps Pegau Da Capo would be a better example?

Tell me more about thermovinification. This is the Duboeuf approach, no? My impression is that it leads to fruity wines but not super-concentrated ooze-monsters. I'd think it unlikely to lead to "spoof." Though, if it had the port-like qualities to begin with, this might end up as a borderline call. I guess I'd say it's a manipulated wine that has a modernist, gobby profile; without the intent of using the wizzardry to spoof it up, it can't reasonably count as "spoofulated."
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
But Beaucastel flash heats the must in a cooker prior to fermentation.
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And that still doesn't kill all the brett? Damn.
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Yeah, I know. Puzzles the hell out of me too.

They swear they're not going for brett. Maybe they have, like, a yeast infection or something. Aren't there some good over-the-counter remedies for that?
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
But Beaucastel flash heats the must in a cooker prior to fermentation.
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And that still doesn't kill all the brett? Damn.
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The people at Beaucastel explain their "flash pasteurization" as a measure designed to reduce their need to sulphur. I haven't had a bottle with significant Brett since the early-mid 1990s (though I'm pretty sure that intervention dates back quite a bit earlier).
 
originally posted by Cliff:
originally posted by Hoke:
originally posted by Cliff:
originally posted by Hoke:
"But to call "spoof" seems to me to connote tricked-out manipulation of a technical sort. The individual manipulations might not necessarily lead one to deem a wine spoofulated, but if a bunch of technical tricks were used with the intent of creating a rich, fruit-forward, "hedonistic" style, the term would fit."

Would the same apply if a bunch of technical tricks were used with the intent of creating a lean, mineral and acid-driven, fruit-supressed, 'anti-hedonistic' style (assuming you're assuming that hedonistic can only refer to gobby stuff; some hedonists may differ with you, a hedonistic masochist, for instance. Or Kane.)?

Relativistically speaking, I mean. Or irrelativistically speaking.
Click to expand...

If the technical tricks are used with the intent of creating a lean, mineral, acid-driven wine, I might call the style "manipulated" but not "spoofy." Spoofulated wines are trying to recapture the "hedonistic," "gob-centric" aesthetic of the archtypal 1947 Cheval Blanc, or some such. There are all sorts of manipulations, as in the carbonic cases in the south, that may produce wines that seem contrived and out of step with the local traditions and yet still not earn "spoofulated" status.
Click to expand...

Oh. Okay.

Then it's obvious that to continue this discussion I need to drink a bottle of 1947 Cheval Blanc. Do you have one handy?

But meanwhile, just to clarify (hah), would Chateauneuf-du-Pape that is thermovinified be considered "natural", "manipulated", or "spoofulated"?
Click to expand...

Alas, no, no '47 CB on hand. Perhaps Pegau Da Capo would be a better example?

Tell me more about thermovinification. This is the Duboeuf approach, no? My impression is that it leads to fruity wines but not super-concentrated ooze-monsters. I'd think it unlikely to lead to "spoof." Though, if it had the port-like qualities to begin with, this might end up as a borderline call. I guess I'd say it's a manipulated wine that has a modernist, gobby profile; without the intent of using the wizzardry to spoof it up, it can't reasonably count as "spoofulated."
Click to expand...

Thermovinification? I think Dressner will have to be the expert authority on that. All I know is the process has been around for a while, lots of people have played with, only Beaujolais uses it large scale, and Beaucastel has had a long history of flash heating the wine in a specially designed cooker prior to fermentation (M. Perrin showed it to me when I visited in 1981 or therabouts).
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
I haven't had a bottle with significant Brett since the early-mid 1990s..
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Fair enough. I guess reputations outlast facts.
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I'd go even further: I haven't noticed brett at all from '95-'04. I guess I might not be terribly sensitive to the scent, but I certainly agree that the reputation is wrong.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:

Not only that, but Trimbach and Texier both seem to have clear aesthetic targets and 'styles' that reflect the vintages but are nonetheless consistent to the 'house style' across vintages. Eric is of course much more recent and has changed over the years, so he can jump in and correct me if he has already made the move to Disorder, but he still seems to have a clear 'aesthetic style'.
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Hi guys,

I moved to Disorder.
But this thread is archetypal of "the Basement" style.
It takes me at least 6 hours to understand if this is serious talk or some kind in-joke exercise.
So I'll stick reading basic stuff so I can post.

The main change in my winemaking attitude is :

I don't try to achieve a specific goal anymore.

Eric
 
Good to see you here.

originally posted by Brzme:
"aesthetic target"
originally posted by Rahsaan:

Not only that, but Trimbach and Texier both seem to have clear aesthetic targets and 'styles' that reflect the vintages but are nonetheless consistent to the 'house style' across vintages. Eric is of course much more recent and has changed over the years, so he can jump in and correct me if he has already made the move to Disorder, but he still seems to have a clear 'aesthetic style'.
Click to expand...

Hi guys,

I moved to Disorder.
But this thread is archetypal of "the Basement" style.
It takes me at least 6 hours to understand if this is serious talk or some kind in-joke exercise.
So I'll stick reading basic stuff so I can post.

The main change in my winemaking attitude is :

I don't try to achieve a specific goal anymore.

Eric
Click to expand...

It isn't a joke to be, insider or otherwise. You know how serious I am about some things...

I must have missed Rahsaan's post because I don't think that there is a aesthetic goal at Texier in the sense that you have an idea in mind and you try to force the wine towards that using whatever means at your disposal.

I think you have a sensibility, one that we share, but this is different to me.
 
The main change in my winemaking attitude is :

I don't try to achieve a specific goal anymore.

Eric
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That's a very interesting comment. So, Eric, what does this mean that you do differently from when you did have a "specific goal"?
 
Beaucastel's method of flash heating dates back at least until the eary decades of the last century. It was invented either by the father or the grandfather of the current Perrins. I don't know what thermovinification is, but I doubt it's the same or has the same results since the flash heating is quite momentary. Beaucastel seems to have eliminated or at least greatly reduced brett by cleaning up their facilities, the usual way.
 
I don't think that there is a aesthetic goal at Texier..
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I don't know where it comes from but the wines seem fresher and lighter in recent years. Wasn't at all a critique (quite the opposite in fact) and perhaps this is the natural result of the vines, vineyards, etc and the earlier wines were the ones where Eric was forcing his style. I don't know if that is what he means.

But many people have noticed this evolution in Texier wines over the years (as often happens with all winemakers, artists, humans, etc) which seemed to be evidence of aesthetic styles.

Does this do justice to your work Eric?
 
originally posted by VLM:

As for Clape, the 1995 was the last vintage I bought as I didn't really take to subsequent vintages. Verset I last bought in 1999 simply because of availability.
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If you ever get the chance, try the 2005 Clape. It had that amazing combination of sweet fruit and terrific structure that made me think that it will be amazing in 20 years or so. Of course I've been wrong once or twice (about as often as Kane is every hour).
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
It is, by seeking a definition, to see if there is an agreed upon category. .
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Okay, that makes more sense. It seemed to me that some of the posters were arguing (at least initially) that there was an agreed upon definition which there clearly is not.

Personally, I use the term to refer to end result rather than technique, depending on to what degree the wine resembled the "international style". Many forms of manipulation tend to produce that result (toastly oak, RO) as do vineyard choices (obsession with phenolic ripeness) but it can also come about despite the intention of the producer due to issues beyond his/her control (2003). And some of those forms of manipulation end up not producing wines that I'd describe as spoofed (Roty Burgundies see lots of toasty oak but end up eating it, the 2000 Marechales were lovely despite use of RO).

So my preference is apply it the extent that a wine falls high on the new oak, ripeness, extraction scales. And a wine can be a bit spoofy but still delicious (e.g., the '98 Pape Clement but not the later vintages which are spoofed to the max :) ).
 
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