CWD: brown seeds are bullshit

V

VLM

VLM
Havent seen Andre in a while since hes been out working his ass off in the marketplace (would you want to be in the wine business right now?). Tough times out there. Got together over at his place for some grilled steaks. Andre does them over the fireplace in his house where he was burning some hickory. Its a pretty cool setup.

2006 Copain Pinot Noir Monument Tree
I was really curious to try the new Copain wines. $54 full boat at a local retailer. Pricey, but what isnt these days? 13.0% alcohol listed on the label. Admirably restrained, bright, and focused. I certainly dont get anything that reeks of under-ripeness. In fact, everything seems to fit together in a nice package. There is a bit of spice, from wood Im assuming, but it could be the site. The fruit is on the red and pitted side of the spectrum. All things considered a nice wine. Im not sure about the cost, but I would drink this again if not necessarily buy it in quantity. The kind of thing you could probably find on a decent restaurant list that doesnt have any Burgundy worth drinking or sufficiently aged to drink. Good for Wells Guthrie for fighting the power. You can make perfectly balanced wine at 13% just by good vineyard work and picking early. Brown seeds my fucking ass.

2003 Chteau Bourgneuf Pomerol
A minor property and I was a bit worried it would be a mess given my experience with other 2003 Bordeaux (even those that are usually on the restrained side like Chevalier). This was a pleasant wine with modest intentions. The predominant theme was of earthy, almost mushroomy notes surrounding plumy merlot. Well structured and enjoyable. Will probably be better in a few years, but interesting enough now in its idiom.
 
I started ESJ in 1985, and it wasn't until the late '90s that I started hearing this brown seed stuff. And you're right, it's BS. If you wait on certain varieties until the seeds turn brown (Mourvedre is the first one that leaps to mind) you're allowing perfectly good grapes to die right before your eyes. I was thrilled to hear that Wells had changed his approach.
 
originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
I started ESJ in 1985, and it wasn't until the late '90s that I started hearing this brown seed stuff. And you're right, it's BS. If you wait on certain varieties until the seeds turn brown (Mourvedre is the first one that leaps to mind) you're allowing perfectly good grapes to die right before your eyes. I was thrilled to hear that Wells had changed his approach.
Click to expand...

Where did the "brown seeds" thing get started? It is taken as a fact these days. Physiological maturity is such a stupid term. Seriously, grapes to make wine from aren't necessarily the same as grapes you'd want to eat.
 
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
I started ESJ in 1985, and it wasn't until the late '90s that I started hearing this brown seed stuff. And you're right, it's BS. If you wait on certain varieties until the seeds turn brown (Mourvedre is the first one that leaps to mind) you're allowing perfectly good grapes to die right before your eyes. I was thrilled to hear that Wells had changed his approach.
Click to expand...

Where did the "brown seeds" thing get started? It is taken as a fact these days. Physiological maturity is such a stupid term. Seriously, grapes to make wine from aren't necessarily the same as grapes you'd want to eat.
Click to expand...
I have no problem with 'physiological maturity,' just how it's defined. I think the only quantifiable piece of data that matters is the pH trajectory. But what matters most to me is how the grapes taste, and I DON'T mean "is all the tannin GONE yet?
 
originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
I started ESJ in 1985, and it wasn't until the late '90s that I started hearing this brown seed stuff. And you're right, it's BS. If you wait on certain varieties until the seeds turn brown (Mourvedre is the first one that leaps to mind) you're allowing perfectly good grapes to die right before your eyes. I was thrilled to hear that Wells had changed his approach.
Click to expand...

Where did the "brown seeds" thing get started? It is taken as a fact these days. Physiological maturity is such a stupid term. Seriously, grapes to make wine from aren't necessarily the same as grapes you'd want to eat.
Click to expand...
I have no problem with 'physiological maturity,' just how it's defined. I think the only quantifiable piece of data that matters is the pH trajectory. But what matters most to me is how the grapes taste, and I DON'T mean "is all the tannin GONE yet?
Click to expand...

I would think that for wines that will go through malo-lactic (as most wines naturally will) then the grapes will not taste like they would if you growing them to eat.

pH trajectory makes sense. Why wouldn't Brix matter to you? Are they de-coupled in some way I don't understand? Actually, what is the correlation? Does it change by variety?

Yeah, the issue with physiological maturity is that it is undefined. It's something people use to justify making a wine they choose to make. I wish they would just say that rather than get all BS-y with the p-m thing.
 
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
I started ESJ in 1985, and it wasn't until the late '90s that I started hearing this brown seed stuff. And you're right, it's BS. If you wait on certain varieties until the seeds turn brown (Mourvedre is the first one that leaps to mind) you're allowing perfectly good grapes to die right before your eyes. I was thrilled to hear that Wells had changed his approach.
Click to expand...

Where did the "brown seeds" thing get started? It is taken as a fact these days. Physiological maturity is such a stupid term. Seriously, grapes to make wine from aren't necessarily the same as grapes you'd want to eat.
Click to expand...
I have no problem with 'physiological maturity,' just how it's defined. I think the only quantifiable piece of data that matters is the pH trajectory. But what matters most to me is how the grapes taste, and I DON'T mean "is all the tannin GONE yet?
Click to expand...

I would think that for wines that will go through malo-lactic (as most wines naturally will) then the grapes will not taste like they would if you growing them to eat.

pH trajectory makes sense. Why wouldn't Brix matter to you? Are they de-coupled in some way I don't understand? Actually, what is the correlation? Does it change by variety?

Yeah, the issue with physiological maturity is that it is undefined. It's something people use to justify making a wine they choose to make. I wish they would just say that rather than get all BS-y with the p-m thing.
Click to expand...
Site is most important. If a grape variety is being grown in a place where it is at home (and this is definitely my idea, and almost everybody making Pinot Noir in Santa Rita Hills will no doubt have a different story) when the rate of increase in pH begins to steepen, the Brix will be appropriate for the variety in question: e.g., Grenache in Paso at 24.5-25.0, Gamay at 3400' in the foothills East of Placerville at 22.4, Grenache Blanc and Vermentino at 2800 feet on a Northeast slope above Georgetown at 21.8. Cab Franc at 2900 feet between Placerville and Camino at 22.8. Or thereabouts. With a good correlation to flavor development and sweetening of tannin. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
You can eat wine grapes, I suppose. I think most of them taste better when they're ripe from (my) winemaking standpoint.
 
Potential alcohol (that's Brix, right? over here we generally use the Baum measurement) and pH often go their separate ways. Heck, even pH and total acidity tend to go their separate ways... Me, I've stopped trying to understand a long time ago.
 
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
I started ESJ in 1985, and it wasn't until the late '90s that I started hearing this brown seed stuff. And you're right, it's BS. If you wait on certain varieties until the seeds turn brown (Mourvedre is the first one that leaps to mind) you're allowing perfectly good grapes to die right before your eyes. I was thrilled to hear that Wells had changed his approach.
Click to expand...

Where did the "brown seeds" thing get started? It is taken as a fact these days. Physiological maturity is such a stupid term. Seriously, grapes to make wine from aren't necessarily the same as grapes you'd want to eat.
Click to expand...

I remember my little trip through Paso Robles a couple of years ago. This was late Oct, nearly November. Grapes were lingereing still on many of the vines, looking like corvina but shriveling on the vines instead of the wooden slats.
I asked why the grapes weren't picked yet. "We strive for physiological ripeness," was the standard reply.
 
originally posted by MarkS:
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
I started ESJ in 1985, and it wasn't until the late '90s that I started hearing this brown seed stuff. And you're right, it's BS. If you wait on certain varieties until the seeds turn brown (Mourvedre is the first one that leaps to mind) you're allowing perfectly good grapes to die right before your eyes. I was thrilled to hear that Wells had changed his approach.
Click to expand...

Where did the "brown seeds" thing get started? It is taken as a fact these days. Physiological maturity is such a stupid term. Seriously, grapes to make wine from aren't necessarily the same as grapes you'd want to eat.
Click to expand...

I remember my little trip through Paso Robles a couple of years ago. This was late Oct, nearly November. Grapes were lingereing still on many of the vines, looking like corvina but shriveling on the vines instead of the wooden slats.
I asked why the grapes weren't picked yet. "We strive for physiological ripeness," was the standard reply.
Click to expand...
Never strive! Slackers rule!
 
originally posted by MarkS:
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
I started ESJ in 1985, and it wasn't until the late '90s that I started hearing this brown seed stuff. And you're right, it's BS. If you wait on certain varieties until the seeds turn brown (Mourvedre is the first one that leaps to mind) you're allowing perfectly good grapes to die right before your eyes. I was thrilled to hear that Wells had changed his approach.
Click to expand...

Where did the "brown seeds" thing get started? It is taken as a fact these days. Physiological maturity is such a stupid term. Seriously, grapes to make wine from aren't necessarily the same as grapes you'd want to eat.
Click to expand...

I remember my little trip through Paso Robles a couple of years ago. This was late Oct, nearly November. Grapes were lingereing still on many of the vines, looking like corvina but shriveling on the vines instead of the wooden slats.
I asked why the grapes weren't picked yet. "We strive for physiological ripeness," was the standard reply.
Click to expand...

That is just classic.
 
The thing is, from a modeling standpoint, I don't think it would be too difficult. I mean you couldn't capture everything the human brain does with pattern recognition, but with a few simplifying assumptions it is tractable.

We are talking about a not terribly large covariance structure analysis, IMO.
 
originally posted by VLM:
Steve and VictorThe thing is, from a modeling standpoint, I don't think it would be too difficult. I mean you couldn't capture everything the human brain does with pattern recognition, but with a few simplifying assumptions it is tractable.

We are talking about a not terribly large covariance structure analysis, IMO.
Click to expand...
Huh? Sorry, I flunked science...
 
originally posted by VLM:
Steve and VictorThe thing is, from a modeling standpoint, I don't think it would be too difficult. I mean you couldn't capture everything the human brain does with pattern recognition, but with a few simplifying assumptions it is tractable.

We are talking about a not terribly large covariance structure analysis, IMO.
Click to expand...
I bet not really. Pinot in Merced is going to look pretty different from cab franc in Clos Guillot.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by VLM:
Steve and VictorThe thing is, from a modeling standpoint, I don't think it would be too difficult. I mean you couldn't capture everything the human brain does with pattern recognition, but with a few simplifying assumptions it is tractable.

We are talking about a not terribly large covariance structure analysis, IMO.
Click to expand...
I bet not really. Pinot in Merced is going to look pretty different from cab franc in Clos Guillot.
Click to expand...

So? We're not talking about whole genome analysis here. This is pretty tractable. I'd say you could get a pretty good amount of variance explained with 25-30 variables. Probably less. The fact that some will be so highly correlated makes it even easier in some respects.
 
originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
originally posted by VLM:
Steve and VictorThe thing is, from a modeling standpoint, I don't think it would be too difficult. I mean you couldn't capture everything the human brain does with pattern recognition, but with a few simplifying assumptions it is tractable.

We are talking about a not terribly large covariance structure analysis, IMO.
Click to expand...
Huh? Sorry, I flunked science...
Click to expand...

Not science. Stats. Stuff tends to covary (correlate), you throw that stuff together with some stuff you want to control for (clone, elevation, etc.) and you can get a decent estimate of a good brix or pH to pick at, all things being equal.
 
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