Reflets de Vert

C

Claude Kolm

Claude Kolm
Occasionally, white wines carry a green tinge, which the French call "reflets de vert." My experience is when they do, they are all high quality, although only a small minority of high quality white wines have reflets de vert. Last night, we had two with reflets de vert - 2000 Ramonet Chassagne-Vergers and 1983 Chteau Climens. The Climens was extremely marked by the green in its youth, but I was surprised to see the quality still there even as the color has deepened to orange.

Does anyone have any explanation for the reflets de vert?
 
Much discussed in the context of older Vouvray a while back. Controversy among the chemists but no consensus. I see it mostly in pretty high acid stuff.

Gerry Dawes had some bee in his bonnet about younger Spanish wines with green in them being somehow the spawn of Satan, but I forget how it went.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:"reflets de vert." My experience is when they do, they are all high quality...Does anyone have any explanation for the reflets de vert?
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I certainly don't have an explanation but I'm not sure it is an indication of quality. Isn't this also found in many cheap thin underripe white wines? Or are we talking about a different green.
 
originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
Wonder ifit might be a low pH thing?
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I think that's involved, but you see it more in Vouvray as it ages--so the chromophore isn't there to start.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:"reflets de vert." My experience is when they do, they are all high quality...Does anyone have any explanation for the reflets de vert?
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I certainly don't have an explanation but I'm not sure it is an indication of quality. Isn't this also found in many cheap thin underripe white wines? Or are we talking about a different green.
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I've always interpreted that as a reference to taste, not apearance.
 
From a strictly empirical perspective, "green" wines have those compounds (solids -phenols?), that with oxygen, become more complex (poly phenols?) that provide all those secondary characteristics that we value in all wines but especially in whites. White wines being primarily structured with acid rather than acid and tannins as red are.. Then again I may be totally off base. I am primarily basing this on a wonderful '88 Domaine de la Ppire that I recently enjoyed that had the most incredible nose and a color that had gone from "green" to a lovely golden hue.
 
Back when I took Bill Nesto's Understanding Wine Tasting course several years ago this subject was specifically brought up by Bill and linked to low pH / high acidity affecting the reflection of light and the sense of the wine's color.

Usually, young white wines are used as examples. But old Madeira often sports a greenish hue around the edges.

I suspect that an astronimist could lend some real insight into the subject, if one happens to be reading this.

I aspire to see a reflets de vert during l'heure bleue. That would be living.
 
We killed the Ramonet last night, but the Climens tonight has lost the green tinge.

For those that claim low pH, I would point out that 1983 in Sauternes and 2000 in Burgundy were both very hot years, and so I doubt that the pHs were especially low.

Maybe Rohmer knew something about it, but that's just for me, Sharon, and probably Loesberg to discuss. Well, maybe you, too, Levi.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
We killed the Ramonet last night, but the Climens tonight has lost the green tinge.

For those that claim low pH, I would point out that 1983 in Sauternes and 2000 in Burgundy were both very hot years, and so I doubt that the pHs were especially low.

Maybe Rohmer knew something about it, but that's just for me, Sharon, and probably Loesberg to discuss. Well, maybe you, too, Levi.
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Claude, I'm not an expert, but I don't associate hot years with higher pH.
 
Steve -- I'm only writing from experience and not from any actual knowledge, but I associate low pH with a higher percentage of malic acidity which I associate with cooler years. But I'm mostly extrapolating from experience with German wines, so I may be totally off base here.
 
Naturally-occurring organic compounds that are green (or blue) are quite rare. I think it might be more likely that the color is due to fluorescence; polyphenols are known to exhibit green fluorescence.
 
originally posted by Arjun Mendiratta:
Naturally-occurring organic compounds that are green (or blue) are quite rare. I think it might be more likely that the color is due to fluorescence; polyphenols are known to exhibit green fluorescence.
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I've mentioned this before (in Therapy) but organic chemistry lore has it that green color is associated with free radicals, not something that I'd expect to find in a bottle of wine. The fluorescence idea is interesting, but you usually see fluorescence as a "glow" rather than pigmentation.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by Jeff Connell:
originally posted by SFJoe:
A just-decanted magnum of '89 Cotat La Grande Cote certainly has it.
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Which would be a counter-example to the low pH hypothesis.
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Nice balanced acidity, but shows the vintage and you wouldn't call it sour. As you well know.
 
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Arjun Mendiratta:
Naturally-occurring organic compounds that are green (or blue) are quite rare. I think it might be more likely that the color is due to fluorescence; polyphenols are known to exhibit green fluorescence.
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I've mentioned this before (in Therapy) but organic chemistry lore has it that green color is associated with free radicals, not something that I'd expect to find in a bottle of wine. The fluorescence idea is interesting, but you usually see fluorescence as a "glow" rather than pigmentation.

Mark Lipton
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My experience with "green" might be described more a a "glow" than pigment. I think someone needs to do more productive research in his lab and figure this out...
 
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