So Sharon was right

[J David Harden]

originally posted by VLM:

Is this the same as that slightly wooly note in chenin?

Sharon's probably referring to the fino sherry quality you sometimes get in Chenin, especially when -- like Villemade, or Joly -- you use minuscule amounts of sulfer dioxide. You're naturally going to get some oxidation in barrel if you don't add any SO2.

originally posted by VLM:

Seriously, is he claiming that the bacteria that get in his wines from no sulfur and exposure to oxygen act as antibiotics?

I think he's suggesting that if you expose the wine to air during vinification (by using less reductive SO2) then it's less precious about it when it sees air later. Like exposing your kid to dirt and dogs to build their immune systems, so that maybe that way they don't need antibiotics because they can handle the bacteria on their own?

 

[VLM]

originally posted by J David Harden:

originally posted by VLM:

Is this the same as that slightly wooly note in chenin?

Sharon's probably referring to the fino sherry quality you sometimes get in Chenin, especially when -- like Villemade, or Joly -- you use minuscule amounts of sulfer dioxide. You're naturally going to get some oxidation in barrel if you don't add any SO2.

I got that from the Vin Jaune reference.

originally posted by VLM:

Seriously, is he claiming that the bacteria that get in his wines from no sulfur and exposure to oxygen act as antibiotics?

I think he's suggesting that if you expose the wine to air during vinification (by using less reductive SO2) then it's less precious about it when it sees air later. Like exposing your kid to dirt and dogs to build their immune systems, so that maybe that way they don't need antibiotics because they can handle the bacteria on their own?

An analogy, but not a particularly apt one.

Oxygen is the enemy of fermenting things unless you take some measures to ward against it's influence.

I think I should have said vaccine instead of anti-biotics.

In any event, it's a hocus-pocus analogy. I'm not saying it's wrong, or that wine should be made totally reductively, I don't believe this either.

I should note that I am not a big fan of Villemade, but I do not dismiss the wines out of hand.

Of those making chenin in an "oxidative style", I much prefer Marc Angeli, although those wines are also far from consistent.

 

[Sharon Bowman]

VLM, this is not Chenin.

And I can't believe you don't like Villemade's wines; I'm floored.

To respond to your Baudry question, it was still in its barrel, and will be blended with the young vines, which is not oxidative at all, rather tight.

As for the inoculation metaphor, it's pretty frequent among "natural" wine growers. The inverse of antiseptic practices. Let flora grow (flore, in the sense also of flore intestinale).

I can only leave off with something Anselme stressed to me, "L'oxydation n'est pas forcment un dfaut." (Oxidation is not a flaw.)

It ain't, man.

Can't believe you don't like Villemade.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
VLM, this is not Chenin.

And I can't believe you don't like Villemade's wines; I'm floored.

Right, it's Romo.

To respond to your Baudry question, it was still in its barrel, and will be blended with the young vines, which is not oxidative at all, rather tight.

My bet is that it is just one barrel and that Matthieu would get on it on his return from vacation.

As for the inoculation metaphor, it's pretty frequent among "natural" wine growers. The inverse of antiseptic practices. Let flora grow (flore, in the sense also of flore intestinale).

I know it's common, it also speaks of psuedo-science. Not having a clean winery leads to fucked up wines.

I can only leave off with something Anselme stressed to me, "L'oxydation n'est pas forcment un dfaut." (Oxidation is not a flaw.)

It ain't, man.

It isn't necessarily a flaw, but it is commonly linked with other sorts of bad things happening. Remember that Selosse has searing levels of acidity to protect his wines and they aren't volatile in the same way.

IMO, Selosse is not some sort of crazy genius the way that Didier Barouillet is, he makes very interesting wines, but like Joly, he strikes me as a bit mad and daft.

Can't believe you don't like Villemade.

You gotta believe baby. I took all my hipster, vintage clothes to Goodwill. New wardrobe is all Brooks Brothers.

 

[Rahsaan]

I took all my hipster, vintage clothes to Goodwill. New wardrobe is all Brooks Brothers.

What does that have to do with wine? I'm almost afraid to hear what Classics you're drinking in these shiny BB threads..

And, while I don't have much scientific knowledge on the subject, while oxidation may not necessarily be a default, it is not necessarily a good thing either and often serves to add generic flavors and textures that get in the way of expressing both grape and site.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

I took all my hipster, vintage clothes to Goodwill. New wardrobe is all Brooks Brothers.

What does that have to do with wine? I'm almost afraid to hear what Classics you're drinking in these shiny BB threads..

All fashions have their time and even at my tender age, I've already seen my share in the wine world.

And, while I don't have much scientific knowledge on the subject, while oxidation may not necessarily be a default, it is not necessarily a good thing either and often serves to add generic flavors and textures that get in the way of expressing both grape and site.

On this we definitely agree.

 

[Sharon Bowman]

My bet is that it is just one barrel and that Matthieu would get on it on his return from vacation.

Is he a young Brooks Brothers-wearing go-getter, too?

This wine was so good I wanted to persuade BB to bottle it without the young vines.

IMO, Selosse is not some sort of crazy genius the way that Didier Barouillet is, he makes very interesting wines, but like Joly, he strikes me as a bit mad and daft.

He is. But he also has a lexical and etymological madness, and that is just far too cool. And of course, when you make wines like his, you don't really need a persuasive discourse at all.

 

[slaton]

originally posted by VLM:
Of those making chenin in an "oxidative style", I much prefer Marc Angeli, although those wines are also far from consistent.

I'll give some props to Jo Pithon. I liked his 2005 Savennieres La Croix Picot and Anjou Les Bergres more than many of the usual suspects in that vintage, and they were definitely a little dark in color and possessing some oxidative character.

 

[slaton]

originally posted by SteveTimko:
Who imports Cazin?

Steve, I don't recall seeing much on the west coast and in the past have ordered my bottles from Chambers St. They may have something at Terroir though.

 

[Arjun Mendiratta]

originally posted by Jay Miller:

One of my all time great food/wine pairings. One of the reasons I had hoped (in vain) that I could get the recipe from you.

You need a recipe for green papaya salad? It's a salad, for chrissakes.

I should admit I'm a few glasses in to la Ppi, but I think you'd want green papaya (obviously), spicy green peppers, peanuts (ideally purchased raw and then fresh-roasted), lime, garlic, perhaps a bit of fish sauce, and...that's it.

Honestly I feel that this dish is way too spicy for wine of any sort, but that's just me.

 

[Chris Coad]

You need a recipe for green papaya salad? It's a salad, for chrissakes.

You know, that's what I've been telling him for three or four years now. But he's like a dog with a bone.

Backstory: I had made the green papaya salad as part of a 'foods that won't ever match well with any wine' event I hosted, mostly involving Hawaiian and Asian-fusion food. But it actually matched decently with several wines, a riesling and something else that I can't recall.

The one I made for the foodie event was a bit less traditional, I left out the fish sauce and threw in some sambal oelek for heat. Tossed in some shredded carrot and cucumber for color and variety. Didn't roast my own peanuts, alas, but that particular romorantin was a wonderfully serendipitous match for the salad. The oiliness swirled around the heat, tamping it down and pointing it up at the same time. The lemon-lime citric notes in the wine mingled wonderfully with the lime juice in the salad, it was like a little tug-of-war going on in your mouth, and both sides won.

 

[SFJoe]

Brooks Brothers is the Antinori of men's clothes.

 

[slaton]

It's far from traditional, but here is a recipe for the green papaya salad served at The Slanted Door. I think it's delicious. It's been so damned long that I honestly don't remember if this was my own reverse-engineered doing or if I lifted it from a published cookbook.

Salad
2-1/2 cups peeled, julienned green papaya
3/4 cup peeled, julienned carrot
2 stalks celery, thinly sliced
12 oz tofu, cut in 1/2" thick squares, deep fried, then cut to 1/4" slices
rau ram (aka. Vietnamese coriander), sliced to ribbons
Thai basil, sliced to ribbons

Dressing
1 tsp finely chopped garlic
2 tsp finely chopped hot chili peppers
4 tbsp fish sauce
4 tbsp lime juice
2 tsp light brown sugar

Toppings
caramelized shallots
roasted peanuts, coarsely chopped

 

[Yixin]

And not in the way vin jaune is. I thought VS would jump on this.

 

[Sharon Bowman]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Rahsaan:

...while oxidation may not necessarily be a default, it is not necessarily a good thing either and often serves to add generic flavors and textures that get in the way of expressing both grape and site.

On this we definitely agree.

I don't agree. A touch of it can be the salt that turns soup from wan to vibrant. The soup is no less leek, or chicken, or what have you.

But I would be interested in delving into this ever-recurring notion of different elements (secondary fermentation, malo, oak, um, what else?) obscuring terroir.

What is the most transparent wine?

Is that the best wine?

 

[Rahsaan]

I don't agree. A touch of it can be the salt that turns soup from wan to vibrant. The soup is no less leek, or chicken, or what have you...What is the most transparent wine? Is that the best wine?

The issue here (as always) is how much of this 'touch' is appropriate before it becomes too much. I like more salt in my food than my wife does, but I appear to like less oxidation in wine than Sharon does. (Now to really solve this equation we need to compare my salt preferences with those of Sharon, and my oxidation preferences with those of my wife. But I digress...)

I don't think anyone is going to argue with you about 'the most transparent wine' being the best wine. Clearly you want some value added from the winemaker to offer a particular intepretation of the grape and the site.

That said, I want it to be clear what grape I am drinking. In fact, I want the wine to scream of that grape in some way shape or form. Now I know wines that show their 'varietal' nature are often considered lesser than ones that show the terroir, and for wines that are truly impressive I do want them to do more than just scream of the grape. There should be some notion of the vintage (often easy to understand), producer (somewhat easy to understand), and terroir (perhaps the most difficult to specify in words, but nonetheless apparent in the great wines).

I'm not sure oxidation helps any of that in chenin.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by SFJoe:
Brooks Brothers is the Antinori of men's clothes.

I think of it as the Carillon, staid, classic, with not much movement towards fashion.

Antinori is Italian. You want fabric from Italy, not actual clothes.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Sharon Bowman:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Rahsaan:

...while oxidation may not necessarily be a default, it is not necessarily a good thing either and often serves to add generic flavors and textures that get in the way of expressing both grape and site.

On this we definitely agree.

I don't agree. A touch of it can be the salt that turns soup from wan to vibrant. The soup is no less leek, or chicken, or what have you.

But I would be interested in delving into this ever-recurring notion of different elements (secondary fermentation, malo, oak, um, what else?) obscuring terroir.

Secondary fermentation is either a flaw or it is forced on a wine.

Malolactic is a natural process that many wines HAVE to go through. Induced malo is no good.

Oak is a natural vessel for wine. Too much oak or too shitty oak or oak on a grape type that doesn't handle it well fucks shit up.

What is the most transparent wine?

Prager riesling Achleiten or Barthod Chambolle Veroilles.

Is that the best wine?

No, Mugnier Musigny is probably the best wine, but out of the leagues that I play in.

 

[The Fish]

I happen to think that the best wine is the grnhaus Abtsberg QbA 1998 tied with the Abtsberg Auslese Fuder Nr. 83 1993.

But Musigny 98 from Mugnier is a great drink.

(thread drift alert)

 

[Florida Jim]

VLM,
Why do wines "HAVE" to go through malo?
Why is induced malo "no good?"
Best, Jim