How Do Screwcap Affect Riesling Aging Curves

[Mark Anisman]

can one store screw capped wines standing upright? or should they be horizontal like most wines?

 

[Eden Mylunsch]

originally posted by Joe Dressner:

I'm just being friendly.

Having worked with several wine importers in the past, I'd advise against this approach, as it only opens wide the doors and establishes a precedent for subsequent requests that will be a pain to deal with (although an endless source of blog material). These can range from requests for special non-oaked bottlings, crown cap closures, aging in specific cooperage, and everything in between. Take it from me, if you give the customer what they want, they'll just pester you for more later on, mistaking "friendly" for "schmuck". Just tell them that you're an artiste and that you're giving them what they should have and everything will be okay.

I'm with Thor on this one: if they don't like it, tell them that they can go pound sand!

-Eden (known for giving suckers such even breaks that eventually they revel in what's offered and they aren't suckers anymore)

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Mark Anisman:
can one store screw capped wines standing upright? or should they be horizontal like most wines?

The major worry with screwcapped wines is that something hits the cap with enough force to dent it, thereby breaking the seal. That's the only worry about standing them upright, though.

Mark Lipton

 

[Thor]

Guess what he did.

Sure, but it was still the winery's decision. What do you think your buddy Aubert would do if faced with the same "demand?" Or, heaven help us, Hubert de Montille?

Well done, Sharon. Well done indeed.

 

[Joel Stewart]

sorry, never had wild boar tripe.

goes well with cabbage simmered with rubber bands in backwater?

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Thor:

Guess what he did.

Sure, but it was still the winery's decision.

Technically, as I said.

 

[Oliver McCrum]

I have been asking my producers to bottle the wine I buy from them under screwcap for the last three days (at Vinitaly). Some of them are going to oblige, if not this year then next. I can't wait, I am sick of dealing with cork problems.

 

[Bwood]

originally posted by Joel Stewart:

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Thanks Thor and Christian for the good information and discussion.

Do reductive odors in the bottle irrevocably compromise the wine, or do these wines mend with airing?

while we're at it, does anyone have a handy definition of what "reductive odors" smell like? and, is the reduction problem solely related to odor and not (or less so) flavors in the wine?

I think Karen Goetz covered this a few years ago. "Frog pond shit" is the phrase that sticks with me.

 

[Mark Anisman]

thanks Mark for your answer on storing these bottles!

 

[Joel Stewart]

frog pond shit....now we're talking.

had no idea reduction inspired this much poetic vehemence.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Thor:

Guess what he did.

Sure, but it was still the winery's decision.

Technically, as I said.

originally posted by Oliver McCrum:
I have been asking my producers to bottle the wine I buy from them under screwcap for the last three days (at Vinitaly). Some of them are going to oblige, if not this year then next. I can't wait, I am sick of dealing with cork problems.

I would think that some of this relates to who is picking up the cost for the corked bottles. Besides the consumer of course.

In many cases of European wine sold in the US, I doubt (but could be wrong) that the cost of returned/refunded bottles gets all the way back to the producer? In which case it makes more sense that someone on the importer side is pushing for alternatives.

 

[Graeme Gee]

Well they do age - amyone who's had Grosset's 2000 Polish Hill under screwcap will attest to that. (Very dark, very petrolly, very 'indicative-of-a-short-drinking-weak-vintage.') And if a wine was thrown together with the aim of being drunk within 12 months of bottling, then don't expect a screwcap to preserve it beyond that - I've tasted a screwcapped 2004 Tasmanian Sauvignon Blanc at 4 years old that was seriously dead.
But I've never done side-by-side, cork v screwcap comparisons of the same wine. Still, most of those who have (generally professionals & ITB types) seem to propound the view originally expressed by Thor; the 'same as the best cork' line.
It seems to be thought that a little reduction will blow off with air, but too much is terminal. And that maybe screwcap sulphur tolerances are tighter than corks, thus requiring more care pre-bottling, but the flipside is greater consistency (for better or worse) in the finished wine.
It'd be nice to think this discussion will all be irrelevant in 20 years...
cheers,
Graeme

 

[Jeff Pinhey]

There are lots of cheap bottles of white out there under screwcap that fart when opened.

 

[Karen Goetz]

originally posted by Bwood:

originally posted by Joel Stewart:

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Thanks Thor and Christian for the good information and discussion.

Do reductive odors in the bottle irrevocably compromise the wine, or do these wines mend with airing?

while we're at it, does anyone have a handy definition of what "reductive odors" smell like? and, is the reduction problem solely related to odor and not (or less so) flavors in the wine?

I think Karen Goetz covered this a few years ago. "Frog pond shit" is the phrase that sticks with me.

Dear Bwood, LOL; sounds like me. You inspire me on a regular basis. Will try to get my futlibakke (Swiss German transcription) in gear to get some trenchant notes placed on this lovely site in near future.
Opened a 2002 P. Matrot Meursault "Les Chevaliers" tonight that was not the least tadpole-like defacatory material, by the way. Pears, fresh milking parlor "lait cru" notes and slight lambent minerality slapping back at you in the mouth, instead. Rather lovely.

 

[Oliver McCrum]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Thor:

Guess what he did.

Sure, but it was still the winery's decision.

Technically, as I said.

originally posted by Oliver McCrum:
I have been asking my producers to bottle the wine I buy from them under screwcap for the last three days (at Vinitaly). Some of them are going to oblige, if not this year then next. I can't wait, I am sick of dealing with cork problems.

I would think that some of this relates to who is picking up the cost for the corked bottles. Besides the consumer of course.

In many cases of European wine sold in the US, I doubt (but could be wrong) that the cost of returned/refunded bottles gets all the way back to the producer? In which case it makes more sense that someone on the importer side is pushing for alternatives.

I have never asked a producer for a refund for corked bottles unless the problem was unusual, eg the early Altec closures when most of the wine was very slightly corked. Domestic wines may make it back to the producer in some cases.

One weird thing about this defect is that so few consumers are aware of it that most of the corked wine gets drunk*, and much of the wine I get returned is not in fact corked...

*with difficulty in many cases, I imagine; people just assume the winery is incompetent

 

[Oliver McCrum]

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Mark Anisman:
can one store screw capped wines standing upright? or should they be horizontal like most wines?

The major worry with screwcapped wines is that something hits the cap with enough force to dent it, thereby breaking the seal. That's the only worry about standing them upright, though.

Mark Lipton

I'm not sure how many of the billions of bottles of screwcapped stuff out there (whisky, olive oil) suffer from this problem. It's a bit like saying that the problem with glass bottles is that if you bash them they break.

Screwcaps are an old, very tested technology. There are some issues that need to be dealt with by wineries to do with the chemistry, but so far there have been very few problems IME.

 

[Eden Mylunsch]

originally posted by Oliver McCrum:

One weird thing about this defect is that so few consumers are aware of it that most of the corked wine gets drunk*, and much of the wine I get returned is not in fact corked...

*with difficulty in many cases, I imagine; people just assume the winery is incompetent

Which is the biggest problem. The average consumer tends not to differentiate between wine that's corked and wine that just tastes bad. They just won't ever buy that wine (or label or variety) ever again. Ordered a bottle of Alsace Riesling the other night and it was very subtly corked and the sommelier replaced it with another bottle that showed much brighter. Over about 10 minutes it too showed signs of TCA. Not overtly, and it was sort of drinkable, but the problem was there. Would others at the table buy this wine again if given the choice? Probably not, and that's what pisses me off about cork closures.

In the late 1990s I participated in a blind tasting of 10 glasses of wine. Five tasted very similar, as if they were the same wine poured from the same bottle. They were fresh, with good fruit yet showed a bit of development. Two of the glasses contained wine that showed signs of TCA, and the other three glasses were kind of all over the place in terms of oxidation, maturation, and flavor. It turns out that they were all the same wine, but from ten different bottles - five finished in Stelvin, five done in cork. They were a mid-90s Riesling (Clare or Eden Valley, IIRC) and everything about the wine was the same except for the closure. Of all the tasters present, none ranked the cork-finished wines in their top-four wines (one cork-finished bottle showed well). That tasting quashed any fears or prejudices I had against non-cork closures, and I've been a big supporter of screwcaps ever since.

-Eden (I even used Stelvin on my wine this year)

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Oliver McCrum:

originally posted by MLipton:

The major worry with screwcapped wines is that something hits the cap with enough force to dent it, thereby breaking the seal. That's the only worry about standing them upright, though.

I'm not sure how many of the billions of bottles of screwcapped stuff out there (whisky, olive oil) suffer from this problem. It's a bit like saying that the problem with glass bottles is that if you bash them they break.

I wasn't saying that it was a common problem, Oliver, merely that it's the only concern that I've heard about upright storage. I agree that it's not something likely to cost me sleep at night worrying about.

Marjk Lipton

 

[SFJoe]

originally posted by Oliver McCrum:

One weird thing about this defect is that so few consumers are aware of it that most of the corked wine gets drunk, and much of the wine I get returned is not in fact corked...

So Oliver, it seems certain that lots of corked wine is unwittingly consumed, but why does wine that isn't corked get back to you? If a restaurant gets a good bottle returned, don't they sell it btg at the bar or some such?

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by SFJoe:
...but why does wine that isn't corked get back to you? If a restaurant gets a good bottle returned, don't they sell it btg at the bar or some such?

I thought he was referring to retail returns. But I could have been wrong. Restaurants probably do get more returns/refusals than shops.