Oldest Vines in Burgundy?

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

$15 a glass on a $15 bottle???!!!
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Claude: it is pretty typical at a fine dining level to charge the wholesale price of a bottle of wine for a glass of said wine as long as said glass is equal to roughly 1/4 the bottle in size.

The resulting "over" margin (usually one is expected to bring in a more favorable to the customer margin overall) is usually balanced out by the bottles that are opened for weekly staff trainings, the bottles that break in some sort of mishap during the course of a month, the bottles that chip at the rim when being opened (resulting in a wine that is unsafe to serve), the free glasses given away by staff either by mistake or on purpose, the bottles sent back by customers who don't understand them, the bottles that have to be replaced because of some sort of mishap involving spills or such, the corked bottles that the distributor won't give credit for (anything bought at auction, anything bought on closeout, anything the distributor sold you 2+ months ago, etc.), and then the other miscellaneous bottles that I as the sommelier decide are flawed in some way that I won't serve to guests, but that also I won't ever get credit for.

Then there is the matter of glassware breakage (always a large expense), my salary, the cellarman's salary, etc.

But then people who are not in the restaurant industry never seem to understand any of this, and it is also a subject that people love to go on at length about without really understanding, so I maybe I just should have left well enough alone.

Goods and services cost money, and everyone is, you know, desirous of making some sort of return on investment and time. I myself am aware of how it is to pay a "cut" to someone who is not the winemaker, as I myself now pay more for a wine through a distributor than I used to pay for the exact same wine direct through the importer as a result of my introducing that wine to said distributor during their meal at my restaurant. Not only do I have to pay more as a result, I can no longer get the wine at a price point or in a quantity that would allow me to pour it, as I used to do. Sucks, don't it?
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:

$15 a glass on a $15 bottle???!!!
Click to expand...

Claude: it is pretty typical at a fine dining level to charge the wholesale price of a bottle of wine for a glass of said wine as long as said glass is equal to roughly 1/4 the bottle in size.

The resulting "over" margin (usually one is expected to bring in a more favorable to the customer margin overall) is usually balanced out by the bottles that are opened for weekly staff trainings, the bottles that break in some sort of mishap during the course of a month, the bottles that chip at the rim when being opened (resulting in a wine that is unsafe to serve), the free glasses given away by staff either by mistake or on purpose, the bottles sent back by customers who don't understand them, the bottles that have to be replaced because of some sort of mishap involving spills or such, the corked bottles that the distributor won't give credit for (anything bought at auction, anything bought on closeout, anything the distributor sold you 2+ months ago, etc.), and then the other miscellaneous bottles that I as the sommelier decide are flawed in some way that I won't serve to guests, but that also I won't ever get credit for.

Then there is the matter of glassware breakage (always a large expense), my salary, the cellarman's salary, etc.

But then people who are not in the restaurant industry never seem to understand any of this, and it is also a subject that people love to go on at length about without really understanding, so I maybe I just should have left well enough alone.

Goods and services cost money, and everyone is, you know, desirous of making some sort of return on investment and time. I myself am aware of how it is to pay a "cut" to someone who is not the winemaker, as I myself now pay more for a wine through a distributor than I used to pay for the exact same wine direct through the importer as a result of my introducing that wine to said distributor during their meal at my restaurant. Not only do I have to pay more as a result, I can no longer get the wine at a price point or in a quantity that would allow me to pour it, as I used to do. Sucks, don't it?
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I guess the people in the restaurant industry out here aren't in the restaurant industry because they markups aren't like that here.
 
Claude: do those people pay Manhattan rent?

Is it possible that you don't have firsthand experience of what you speak?

I got my first job as a barback stocking wine bottles at 16. I have been a Sommelier in a restaurant since I was 22. I am now 32. I have worked in restaurants in the Bay Area, Boston, Florida, and Manhattan. I think I have a pretty fair idea of the state of things.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
But then people who are not in the restaurant industry never seem to understand any of this, and it is also a subject that people love to go on at length about without really understanding, so I maybe I just should have left well enough alone.
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Alas, and alas. (One for each side.)

...I myself now pay more for a wine through a distributor than I used to pay for the exact same wine direct through the importer as a result of my introducing that wine to said distributor during their meal at my restaurant. Not only do I have to pay more as a result, I can no longer get the wine at a price point or in a quantity that would allow me to pour it, as I used to do. Sucks, don't it?
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Ouch. Ouch. (Both for you.)
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
Potel has an amazing ability to make an incredible range of wines from different appellations that taste startlingly alike. A benefit for some I suppose. Not generally for me.
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Are you sure you aren't talking about Girardin? Maybe they both have the curse of Remoissinet?
 
Count me as a Potel fan, although the Potels I buy are almost exclusively Vosne-Romanee. Most are top-notch versions of their crus and village.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
Claude: do those people pay Manhattan rent?

Is it possible that you don't have firsthand experience of what you speak?

I got my first job as a barback stocking wine bottles at 16. I have been a Sommelier in a restaurant since I was 22. I am now 32. I have worked in restaurants in the Bay Area, Boston, Florida, and Manhattan. I think I have a pretty fair idea of the state of things.
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I don't think I've had this kind of reaction to anything I've said since the days when I used to visit Bordeaux and would tell the people there that I didn't like what reverse osmosis and malolactic fermentation in new barrels did to their wines.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
Claude: do those people pay Manhattan rent?

Is it possible that you don't have firsthand experience of what you speak?

I got my first job as a barback stocking wine bottles at 16. I have been a Sommelier in a restaurant since I was 22. I am now 32. I have worked in restaurants in the Bay Area, Boston, Florida, and Manhattan. I think I have a pretty fair idea of the state of things.
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I don't think I've had this kind of reaction to anything I've said since the days when I used to visit Bordeaux and would tell the people there that I didn't like what reverse osmosis and malolactic fermentation in new barrels did to their wines.
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Is that to say you have firsthand experience? Or is that to avoid an answer to a discussion that you started, in the same sort of way that

I guess the people in the restaurant industry out here aren't in the restaurant industry because they markups aren't like that here.
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is sarcastic, completely generalized to the point of being irrelevant, and lacking in merit as an argument that might be based on any sort of verifiable information?

Is this discussion about my character, or about the subject of wine pricing in restaurants?

Either way you are both sweeping and dismissive without any idea as to what you are talking about.
 
originally posted by mlawton:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
Potel has an amazing ability to make an incredible range of wines from different appellations that taste startlingly alike. A benefit for some I suppose. Not generally for me.
Click to expand...

Are you sure you aren't talking about Girardin? Maybe they both have the curse of Remoissinet?
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Are you speaking of old Remoissenet or new Remoissenet? Just curious.

I have never had anything from Girardin that I found palatable. Potel is not in that rarefied company for me.
 
To generalize, I would vote "old" Remoissenet. But do you ever know ?

Seriously, I hear there's a new regime there, and the wines have changed for the better. I've not had a "new" one. So I may be living in the past.

As far as Girardin, I don't like them either, at least the ones I've had. And they all tasted the same.

Now I'll stand aside and let you and Claude have at it. Just don't argue with Victor. He's got a lot of names that he'll throw at you.
 
originally posted by mlawton:
To generalize, I would vote "old" Remoissenet. But do you ever know ?
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I visited Remoissenet this past November -- Bernard Repolt, who has a long history in Burgundy, notably at Jadot, is running the operation and Claudie Jobard, daughter of Laurence Jobard (formerly the Drouhin winemaker), is making the wines, with Laurence's consultation. Good things.

Old Remoissenet is not a black and white situation. There were/are spectacular and genuine wines. A couple of years ago, the greatest wine of the year that I had was a magnum of 1971 Musigny from Remoissenet -- he used to buy from de Vog and Roumier -- and last fall I had a fabulous 1969 Clos St-Jacques from Remoissenet. It was Remoissenet who took Ronald Avery around Burgundy, and supposedly you can tell the genuine Burgundies from the adulterated ones under the Avery's label by the color of the glass.
 
I think old, old Remoissenet, before Remoissenet was handed down to a Remoissenet that wasn't too interested in wine, can come through at times. Individual bottlings from the 1960's and before will surprise at moments, and are still found on the market as the new owners inherited a large backstock of old vintages which they have been selling off. Old Remoissenet as in one old, can be terrible, and overpriced, or it can be a happy surprise. I like the 1997 Corton-Charlemagne "Jubilee", for instance.

The new stuff is in a different mold, with a new winemaker, and from almost entirely new vineyard sources. I'll let you make up your own mind about it.
 
Where are you when we need you to adjudicate?

I think I'm slightly more sympathetic to Potel's wines than the majority of the crowd - I've had some really, really nice ones, especially from 2003 when they didn't seem as marked by the vintage. But agree on Girardin. Meh.
 
I need to vague this up...

A close wine acquaintance of mine, who worked in a capacity which would involve him selling Remoissenet wines, once told us in great detail about his visit to the domaine with some 1st-tier representatives who would be purchasing a great deal of wine. He described a scene over a ledger in which all entries were penciled, whereby an entire vintage was resupplied (at a discount) at the stroke of an eraser, followed by a few strokes of the pencil. There was more to the story, but I think I'd better leave it there.

I haven't bought a Remoissenet wine since. I've no doubt there are legit and even high-quality bottlings, but...well, never mind.
 
There is nothing wrong with old Remoissenet as long as you don't look at the designation on the label. Seriously.
 
originally posted by Thor:
I need to vague this up...

A close wine acquaintance of mine, who worked in a capacity which would involve him selling Remoissenet wines, once told us in great detail about his visit to the domaine with some 1st-tier representatives who would be purchasing a great deal of wine. He described a scene over a ledger in which all entries were penciled, whereby an entire vintage was resupplied (at a discount) at the stroke of an eraser, followed by a few strokes of the pencil. There was more to the story, but I think I'd better leave it there.

I haven't bought a Remoissenet wine since. I've no doubt there are legit and even high-quality bottlings, but...well, never mind.
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Kermit's Adventures on the Wine Route -- check out the section on the Burgundy negociant.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:

But then people who are not in the restaurant industry never seem to understand any of this, and it is also a subject that people love to go on at length about without really understanding, so I maybe I just should have left well enough alone.

Goods and services cost money, and everyone is, you know, desirous of making some sort of return on investment and time.
Click to expand...

The problem is that everything you are talking about is based on a false mooring. A bubble that went from credit to assets to everything in between. This is what New York has been built on since the FIRE economy began.

I think that lots of places for whom this sort of margin is necessary for survival will eat it.

I'm sympathetic. Restaurants support my brother and his family.

To me, the real problem is that people will not pay the true cost of the food they are eating. More insidiously, restaurants play the game of having the food be too cheap to survive so that on the surface they look cheaper than their competitors and then killing people who actually like to drink with their meals.

While I value your experience and respect it, the argument from authority does not really answer the critique that the "first glass pays the bottle" model is flawed and unsustainable.
 
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