Oldest Vines in Burgundy?

originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:

But then people who are not in the restaurant industry never seem to understand any of this, and it is also a subject that people love to go on at length about without really understanding, so I maybe I just should have left well enough alone.

Goods and services cost money, and everyone is, you know, desirous of making some sort of return on investment and time.
Click to expand...

The problem is that everything you are talking about is based on a false mooring. A bubble that went from credit to assets to everything in between. This is what New York has been built on since the FIRE economy began.

I think that lots of places for whom this sort of margin is necessary for survival will eat it.

I'm sympathetic. Restaurants support my brother and his family.

To me, the real problem is that people will not pay the true cost of the food they are eating. More insidiously, restaurants play the game of having the food be too cheap to survive so that on the surface they look cheaper than their competitors and then killing people who actually like to drink with their meals.

While I value your experience and respect it, the argument from authority does not really answer the critique that the "first glass pays the bottle" model is flawed and unsustainable.
Click to expand...

The evidence of the reservation book says you are wrong. That is to your point about the model being flawed and unsustainable. Which, by the way, is entirely your point, and was never Claude's point. Claude said that restaurant's in his area don't charge that way, which is, I assure you, an overbroad generalization that is not correct. My point is that Claude does not in this instance know of what he speaks. When I have been pricing wine for 10 years for restaurants all over the country in a way that Claude says is not happening, then I think the historical experience that I offer is relevant. Basic point being that I actually do the job, at a restaurant that is doing just fine, thank you, and neither you nor Claude can say the same.

In fact, I think that when you, Mr. Monkey, speak about the NYC restaurant scene, you are speaking outside of your depth of knowledge. For instance, the statement about "killing people who actually like to drink with their meals" is silly on it's face, simply because you are talking about it like there are two separate groups of people, those who go to dinner at a fine dining (3 star NYT, 1 + Michelin) restaurant in NYC and just have water or soda (a numerically insignificant number of people largely composed or pregnant ladies and the underage), and those who foot the bill for the restaurant by drinking. In actual reality, basically everyone is both an eater and a drinker. And in fact, the more you drink, the more favorable margin you may in fact receive, as was already explained.

In truth, the whole restaurants are "killing people" sort of parlance is symptomatic of the problem with this sort of debate in general, which is namely and specifically, that all sorts of people who have no idea whatsoever about how restaurants actually work feel free to make sweeping generalizations and accusations, simply because they eat in restaurants and feel themselves somehow expert. I have not and do not expect to discuss the operating expenses of colleges or law firms simply because I am quite aware that my doing so would be silly. Would that others do the same.

And btw, to come on in and say an "argument from authority" is invalid is the same as invoking an argument from authority, which is to say an authority about debate and the rules of logic.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:

But then people who are not in the restaurant industry never seem to understand any of this, and it is also a subject that people love to go on at length about without really understanding, so I maybe I just should have left well enough alone.

Goods and services cost money, and everyone is, you know, desirous of making some sort of return on investment and time.
Click to expand...

The problem is that everything you are talking about is based on a false mooring. A bubble that went from credit to assets to everything in between. This is what New York has been built on since the FIRE economy began.

I think that lots of places for whom this sort of margin is necessary for survival will eat it.

I'm sympathetic. Restaurants support my brother and his family.

To me, the real problem is that people will not pay the true cost of the food they are eating. More insidiously, restaurants play the game of having the food be too cheap to survive so that on the surface they look cheaper than their competitors and then killing people who actually like to drink with their meals.

While I value your experience and respect it, the argument from authority does not really answer the critique that the "first glass pays the bottle" model is flawed and unsustainable.
Click to expand...

The evidence of the reservation book says you are wrong. That is to your point about the model being flawed and unsustainable. Which, by the way, is entirely your point, and was never Claude's point. Claude said that restaurant's in his area don't charge that way, which is, I assure you, an overbroad generalization that is not correct. My point is that Claude does not in this instance know of what he speaks. When I have been pricing wine for 10 years for restaurants all over the country in a way that Claude says is not happening, then I think the historical experience that I offer is relevant. Basic point being that I actually do the job, at a restaurant that is doing just fine, thank you, and neither you nor Claude can say the same.

In fact, I think that when you, Mr. Monkey, speak about the NYC restaurant scene, you are speaking outside of your depth of knowledge. For instance, the statement about "killing people who actually like to drink with their meals" is silly on it's face, simply because you are talking about it like there are two separate groups of people, those who go to dinner at a fine dining (3 star NYT, 1 + Michelin) restaurant in NYC and just have water or soda (a numerically insignificant number of people largely composed or pregnant ladies and the underage), and those who foot the bill for the restaurant by drinking. In actual reality, basically everyone is both an eater and a drinker. And in fact, the more you drink, the more favorable margin you may in fact receive, as was already explained.

In truth, the whole restaurants are "killing people" sort of parlance is symptomatic of the problem with this sort of debate in general, which is namely and specifically, that all sorts of people who have no idea whatsoever about how restaurants actually work feel free to make sweeping generalizations and accusations, simply because they eat in restaurants and feel themselves somehow expert. I have not and do not expect to discuss the operating expenses of colleges or law firms simply because I am quite aware that my doing so would be silly. Would that others do the same.
Click to expand...

Maybe "killing people" isn't the right way to put it, so how about overcompensating margins.

So you think that restaurants don't use their drinks program to make up for unsustainably low margins on the food and service?

I am fully aware of what it takes to keep wine businesses and restaurants open, although, as you correctly point out, not in New York. It would be specious of me to think that economic models that are viable in other places would apply to New York. Black Swan and all.

And btw, to come on in and say an "argument from authority" is invalid is the same as invoking an argument from authority, which is to say an authority about debate and the rules of logic.
Click to expand...

I think, with all due respect, you may be out of your depth. As far as I can remember, the "I know therefore what I say is truth" isn't accepted anywhere near any university I've ever been associated with. I'm sure you have valid arguments to make, but referring constantly to your own experience is anecdotal. I'd just like to see broader points. (And it may be your opinion that broad points aren't possible and that ever case is unique, I'd accept that as well.)

And while I am happy to hear that your restaurant is doing well, I think you underestimate what the lingering effects of serious decline in the FIRE economy will have on the economic landscape of New York City.
 
Question about proportions: The heated discussion of glass price vs bottle price is not relevant for non-drinkers nor for bottle drinkers. I am curious, for those who have restaurant experience, what % of diners is that?

[ I happen to fall into the glass drinker category often because when I travel for work I am usually alone at dinner. But, other than consultants and traveling salesmen, how big a slice of the restaurant pie is that? ]

Thanks.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:

I have never had anything from Girardin that I found palatable. Potel is not in that rarefied company for me.
Click to expand...

I quite liked the 1999 Girardin Bonnes Mares. Though that's more of an exception to the general rule for me.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
The resulting "over" margin (usually one is expected to bring in a more favorable to the customer margin overall) is usually balanced out by the bottles that are opened for weekly staff trainings, the bottles that break in some sort of mishap during the course of a month, the bottles that chip at the rim when being opened (resulting in a wine that is unsafe to serve), the free glasses given away by staff either by mistake or on purpose, the bottles sent back by customers who don't understand them, the bottles that have to be replaced because of some sort of mishap involving spills or such, the corked bottles that the distributor won't give credit for (anything bought at auction, anything bought on closeout, anything the distributor sold you 2+ months ago, etc.), and then the other miscellaneous bottles that I as the sommelier decide are flawed in some way that I won't serve to guests, but that also I won't ever get credit for.

Then there is the matter of glassware breakage (always a large expense), my salary, the cellarman's salary, etc.
Click to expand...

This is also a variant of the free-rider problem. Everyone wants the goods, but no one wants to pay.
 
originally posted by Jay Miller:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:

I have never had anything from Girardin that I found palatable. Potel is not in that rarefied company for me.
Click to expand...

I quite liked the 1999 Girardin Bonnes Mares. Though that's more of an exception to the general rule for me.
Click to expand...
Well, so if it is true confessions on Girardin, I enjoyed the 1996 Chassagne-Montrachet Boudriotte a few months ago.
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Is Potel really so blah? He gets decent press.
Click to expand...

Ian,
I notice he gets pretty nice props in some tasting notes, as well.
I don't often get to taste his stuff but the ones I have all seem generic. Nothing wrong with them just no character.
But that's just me.
Best, Jim
Click to expand...

Merci, Jim.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top