Sorriso sausage

Isn't Weinbach biodynamic (at least since '05)? I know Wittmann in Rheinhessen is biodynamic as well and he's making some great wines there.
 
Regarding biodynamic producers in Alsace, I think if you rank your preferences on one axis and their average yields on another (correcting for vine density), there might be some correlation. I recall that Josmeyer had higher yields than Deiss or Ostertag, at least.
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That's a good suggestion, actually. Maybe I'm falling into the Jean Fisch mindset, wherein the quest for ever-lower yields becomes a problem (though his focus was Burgundy, if I recall correctly). Because I hardly think that the failure of Alsatian wines is that they're just not big or concentrated enough.

Maybe it's biodynamie and Riesling?
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Maybe, but (at least in Alsace) my issues are across the grape spectrum. And I like most of the Austrians who practice it.

Salil: yes, Weinbach is biodynamic...fully since 2005, and they started with it a while back.
 
originally posted by Yixin:
Overly low yields?
Maybe it's biodynamie and Riesling? Who's really good? Nikolaihof? Who else?
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Wittmann, as noted above, Clemens Busch, Rebholz, Khn, Christmann, Buhl (IIRC) -- those are some pretty heavy names. Others are switching over so it's gaining momentum, e.g., Bassermann-Jordan (IIRC), Gunderloch for part of the estate.
 
Who's really good?

I can't give Busch or any of the rest on that list unqualified nods. I think the last 2 vintages have been kinder to many of the German producers, especially Busch, who made some very heavy, dense wines in 2005 and 2006.
 
originally posted by Yixin:
Same questionWho's really good?

I can't give Busch or any of the rest on that list unqualified nods. I think the last 2 vintages have been kinder to many of the German producers, especially Busch, who made some very heavy, dense wines in 2005 and 2006.
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Busch is super in 2007, too. Have to admit that I wasn't visiting him before 2005 vintage, but three in a row, plus glowing admiration from some of his colleagues who, to paraphrase Mike Ditka, throw praise around like manhole covers, is good enough for me. Wittmann, Rebholz, and Gunderloch are all top-of-the-line producers for me; the others I listed are only a grade below and capable of producing top notch wines, just not with the same consistency.
 
the overly low yield argument is quite intriguing. also, how about weather changes there in the last 2 decades or so?

could the two work less well with a biodynamism approach in Alsace?
 
The climate change thing is definitely troubling in Alsace, for sure. It's already hot (and as some argue, too hot for the grapes they grow). The fat grapes are getting sugary (or their wines are getting fiercely alcoholic, not that you'll ever see those numbers on the labels), the lean grapes are getting awfully broad, and the incidence of freak years (1997, 2000 to some extent, 2003) where wines border on undrinkable is increasing.

Unfortunately, it hasn't even helped the pinot noir.
 
so, can't at least some of this problem be alleviated by adjusting downward the green harvest amounts and harvesting grapes for the wines earlier? (i thought that was what some growers were already doing in other regions to work around the problem of overripeness.)
 
The problem of overripeness/excess weight/excess sugar, or the problem of Thor not liking most of the biodynamic producers in Alsace? (emoticon goes here)

In theory, I presume so. In practice, it seems that heft is popular pretty much everywhere, so I don't know how much impetus there is to change. I do know that some producers I admire do, on occasion, pick at a variety of different dates and achieve balance in the cellar via blending. I suppose that's manipulation, but if so it's at least "natural" manipulation; nothing is being done to the grapes other than harvesting them.

I do think that agricultural practices have not always kept pace with climate changes, but I also think that critical and/or popular taste has sometimes kept pace with climate changes, so a winery has to have a pretty firm philosophy to buck either trend.
 
presumably both!

...and i don't think you're alone in this...for the time being, i've focused elsewhere (mainly austria, now adding friuli) because of my growing boredom with the excess ripeness and high alc. of the Alsatians (mind you, my experience is mainly limited to ZH). in the past, i have "impressed" die hard red wine fans by bringing the occasional high octane ZH to dinners...no doubt the potency and weight of the wine is something they can relate to. but i found the wines tiresome after all. if that's where the money is, so be it....i have no problem seeking wines elsewhere. seems to me though, that (as you attest to) there must be a few winemakers there who see things differently...picking at different rates and intentionally going for something different. this would draw my interest back to Alsace...assuming i have access to trying them, another trick.

an off the wall thought, but it would be interesting to see what a winemaker who typically makes 11% wines, say someone from the Nantais, would do, if given a decent vineyard and cellar to work in, for a season in Alsace.
 
If you're really interested, and you're still in Japan by that time (...which is where you are, right?), I'll try to remember to bring some in either 2010 or 2011, when we visit. Other than Trimbach, I mean, which I presume you already know.

I too would be interested in what outsiders could bring, but I don't think the problem in Alsace as a whole is that producers aren't interested in making lighter or more balanced wines (though some certainly aren't). I think it's just getting damned hard, for a number of reasons (climate, critics, market). Going in the other direction, I've been intrigued and mostly pleased with what Kreydenweiss has been doing with his Rhne/Provence project.
 
I agree with Thor -- they're out there, but either not imported or mostly ignored. Had a lovely Riesling Glintzberg from Roland Schmitt tonight, 12.0% stated alcohol. Who runs after or even knows this very good, understated estate?
 
yes, we're here...and probably will still be here in '11, though we are aiming for the US eventually. would, of course, welcome trying anything, Thor, and thanks for the thought. i don't know Trimbach that well actually...it seems a bit of a thicket knowing what to try, though i did make a mental note to consult your thorough post awhile back about the various labels/levels from that producer when i get in the mood to delve more deeply. availability within Japan, again, can be an issue.

re- the "climate, critics, market" thing....i'm sure there are pressures (or temptations) everywhere, but if under-the-(international)-radar producers in the Loire are making things happen, seems possible in Alsace too...but then again, the dynamics of the wine community in either area may be completely different from each other. not having been to either place, i really know...uhm, not much at all.

Kreydenweiss in Rhone/Provence sounds very interesting.
 
per the ripeness issue, i thought this was interesting to come across today...from wineterroirs: "__3 Jasnires 2004, still another cask. Great mouth, here,superb. slightly oxydative, with corinth grapes aromas. I ask him if he will blend these casks together. He says : "we'll see..." He adds that with the warmer weather these years, he will change a few things, on the harvest, and also with leaving a bit more clusters on the vines to have a little less concentration. He is looking for a 13 wine, not a 15."
 
i don't know Trimbach that well actually...it seems a bit of a thicket knowing what to try, though i did make a mental note to consult your thorough post awhile back about the various labels/levels from that producer when i get in the mood to delve more deeply. availability within Japan, again, can be an issue.
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The normal recommendation (to get the better wines, especially the rieslings) is difficult in this case because they're usually so difficult young. They can be "impressive," but not exactly a joy to drink. You'll just have to find something mature...

i'm sure there are pressures (or temptations) everywhere, but if under-the-(international)-radar producers in the Loire are making things happen, seems possible in Alsace too
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I think we get overexposed to (or more accurately, as) the market for these wines, and thus can exaggerate their appeal to the masses, which is virtually nil. Things may be different there with your star sommelier promoting Puzelat, or whatever, but it's not even what most people who've seen the names pass by them on wine fora drink, much less everyone else. We're talking niche importers (and even then, many of the niche importers bring in the biggest and brawniest Alsatian producers), niche retailers and restaurants, niche markets. I don't want to belittle their work, because what they've done is impressive and I'd drink a lot worse did they not exist, but there are people even on Wine Disorder who can't get most of these sorts of wines without breaking the law...and to the extent that we're characterizeable, we're the demo. I don't think I'll be getting my neighbors, who are into wine but at a much more normal level, to search these things out without bottle-by-bottle recommendations.

That moment of negativity aside, I tend to agree with you; the difference seems to be, at least in the States, that while there are importers crawling the Loire (and southern France, and many parts of Italy) looking for wines of the type we're discussing, if they're doing the same in Alsace, they're being awfully quiet about it. My market is allegedly #1 for Alsace in the U.S., and what we see is still primarily the same names one sees everywhere (caveat: we're so dominated by Trimbach that this actually has a sort of crowd-out effect on the sales of other wines, tough I do wonder what's happening with them under the somewhat indifferent Diageo, vs. the much more committed C&E). Maybe there's no market for more riesling, or for gewurztraminer and pinot gris (and the rest), and importers are making a wise commercial decision to avoid Alsace. That's not really my field.

the dynamics of the wine community in either area may be completely different from each other
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There's that, too. There seem to be real "communities of philosophy" in some areas (in both France and Italy) that grow together. Alsatians have that Germanic reserve coupled with French privacy, and I'm not sure it works in their favor for this sort of thing. Or I could be wrong; the last time I went to visit Trimbach, Jean was on vacation in Scotland...with Olivier Humbrecht.

Kreydenweiss in Rhone/Provence sounds very interesting.
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Though I doubt there's a way to reverse-engineer this conclusion, tasting them knowing who made them is like tasting the sort of Rhnish wines you'd think an Alsatian winemaker would make: mineral-driven in a colder, more rigid way than is typical for most of what I've tasted. If you've ever had Durban's Ctes-du-Rhne Beaumes-de-Venise Rouge, sorta like that (though fleshier).

he will change a few things, on the harvest, and also with leaving a bit more clusters on the vines to have a little less concentration. He is looking for a 13 wine, not a 15
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I have a recurring disagreement with certain winemakers who make wines closer to the latter and always taste boozy, but when I ask if there aren't things they could do along the lines you mention, they insist that I'm asking them to manipulate the natural expression of their terroir. Which, of course, is kinda bullshit; they're making the wines they want to make. (This is proven by the fact that their neighbors make wines closer to the former, because that's the wine they want to make.)

So no, in Alsace hands aren't forced, despite being strongly encouraged by climate (even aside from climate change, which is pushing harder), and the market, and the critical acclaim for ever-bigger wines. But there has to be a pretty active desire to want to do things differently. And also, there's this: higher yields, earlier harvesting, etc. have a particularly bad reputation in Alsace because of all the diluted junk grown on the Rhine plain, which is mostly awful (and has always been off-dry or sweet because it's the only actual flavor they can get out of the wine). Good producers have spent a lot of time and energy, both within the region and outside via marketing, trying to raise standards and separate themselves, but one of the consequences is that raising yields is a difficult mental hurdle for some.
 
is perhaps part of the answer, as well as clonal selection (or an approximation thereof), re: viticultural practice and less sugary/alcoholic wines. Some German producers have let their yields go up, by reducing/eliminating green harvests, training differently (sometimes letting multiple canes grow), and being a lot more careful with canopy management during the hot late summer months. I've also heard arguments for less prolific (in terms of sugar production) clones although most of those are not even producing yet.
 
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