help? ... and spam of course

But you're probably right that it's not the ideal translation of monocpage.

For me, it was a stylistic issue; "varietal Chteauneuf-du-Pape" just looked wrong, aside from any grammatical considerations. And still does. I'm not sure why, and there's no longer any Therapy to help me figure it out.
 
originally posted by Thor: "varietal Chteauneuf-du-Pape" just looked wrong

Thor, I can't imagine and have never heard anyone referring to CNdPs as varietals. To me CNdPs are the antithesis of varietals as there often (usually?) is no principal grape.

Beaucastel is, what, 17 grapes!?!
 
Thor, I can't imagine and have never heard anyone referring to CNdPs as varietals. To me CNdPs are the antithesis of varietals as there often (usually?) is no principal grape.
There are single-variety CdPs. Quite a few, in fact. Often grenache. Occasionally mourvdre. Often pumped up in one fashion or another...in the vineyard or in the cellar...and frequently the recipients of gobs of points from critics.

Beaucastel isn't necessarily representative. Many CdPs (in fact, many Southern Rhnes) are more than half -- sometimes much more than half -- a single grape. And so, my point was that if they're blends, Geyserville is a blend. If Geyserville can be considered a varietal zinfandel, then many CdPs can be considered varietal grenache.

Since I think obscures the differentiation between "varietal" and "blend" beyond utility, I think a more rigorous definition of "varietal" is more useful. I prefer 100% (though I'd make an exception for insignificant field variation), because otherwise I'm not quite sure where to draw the line. Do we separate varietal and non-varietal Cte-Rties, for example? If so, at what percentage of viognier do we separate the two? I think that's a pointless debate, and one we can avoid if we hold "varietal" to a 100% standard.

Even if we don't, however, I'd hope that it refer to wines intended as representative of that variety. A 90% Napa cabernet sauvignon, so labeled, would qualify. A variable-composition Margaux, so labeled, would not. I'd still prefer the more rigid definition, but I probably can't win that one.
 
Can you fit all that into your list Putnam? If the customer comes away from Slows without a proper grasp of the difference between "variety" and "varietal" I would consider the whole thing a wash.
 
originally posted by Thor:
Do we separate varietal and non-varietal Cte-Rties, for example? If so, at what percentage of viognier do we separate the two? I think that's a pointless debate, and one we can avoid if we hold "varietal" to a 100% standard.
I'm not sure I followed. C-R is basically syrah with a bit of viognier sometimes. Do you want to skip over that and say C-R is varietal or do you want to say that there is no way to generalize across C-R? Or, um, uh, what?
 
originally posted by Cory Cartwright:
Can you fit all that into your list Putnam? If the customer comes away from Slows without a proper grasp of the difference between "variety" and "varietal" I would consider the whole thing a wash.

we don't want to go killin' trees, or mountains of pulp product, for it's own sake now

lemonade vs. IPA vs. varietal variety - it's complicated - and this is according to testimony of loved ones.

I wish a Doobie Brothers song could take over the answer to that ...

I'd accept Fleetwood Mac or Robbie Robertson of course.
 
originally posted by Thor:
Thor, I can't imagine and have never heard anyone referring to CNdPs as varietals. To me CNdPs are the antithesis of varietals as there often (usually?) is no principal grape.
There are single-variety CdPs. Quite a few, in fact. Often grenache. Occasionally mourvdre. Often pumped up in one fashion or another...in the vineyard or in the cellar...and frequently the recipients of gobs of points from critics.

Beaucastel isn't necessarily representative. Many CdPs (in fact, many Southern Rhnes) are more than half -- sometimes much more than half -- a single grape. And so, my point was that if they're blends, Geyserville is a blend. If Geyserville can be considered a varietal zinfandel, then many CdPs can be considered varietal grenache.

Since I think obscures the differentiation between "varietal" and "blend" beyond utility, I think a more rigorous definition of "varietal" is more useful. I prefer 100% (though I'd make an exception for insignificant field variation), because otherwise I'm not quite sure where to draw the line. Do we separate varietal and non-varietal Cte-Rties, for example? If so, at what percentage of viognier do we separate the two? I think that's a pointless debate, and one we can avoid if we hold "varietal" to a 100% standard.

Even if we don't, however, I'd hope that it refer to wines intended as representative of that variety. A 90% Napa cabernet sauvignon, so labeled, would qualify. A variable-composition Margaux, so labeled, would not. I'd still prefer the more rigid definition, but I probably can't win that one.
Geyserville originally was referred to as a field blend and not a Zin by many people associated with Ridge.
 
originally posted by Cory Cartwright:
Can you fit all that into your list Putnam? If the customer comes away from Slows without a proper grasp of the difference between "variety" and "varietal" I would consider the whole thing a wash.

Mod parent up.
 
I'm not sure I followed. C-R is basically syrah with a bit of viognier sometimes. Do you want to skip over that and say C-R is varietal or do you want to say that there is no way to generalize across C-R? Or, um, uh, what?
What I want is to restrict "varietal" to 100%-of-something wines.

What I suspect is reasonable to want is to allow some fudge factor.

What I think is problematic about being reasonable is that without a solid definition, we don't share a common language, and confusion results. A "100%"-alist would say that some Cte-Rtie is varietal syrah, and some is not. A "reasonable"-alist would say that it's generally a varietal wine that can include some viognier. But as we see in this thread, some would consider it "reasonable" to call Geyserville a varietal zinfandel. Rather than arguing about whether or not that's reasonable or unreasonable, I'd prefer a strict standard so we don't have to have the argument on a wine-by-wine basis. 100% or 90%, OK. Not lower than that, though, whatever the legal status of varietal labeling is in a given country.

Is that clearer?

Putnam, how about you replace the wine list with this debate?
 
Please remove either the comma or the & from:

a summer taste classic, & a distinctive accomplished Touraine Sauvignon - with no additives
 
originally posted by Thor:
Thor, I can't imagine and have never heard anyone referring to CNdPs as varietals. To me CNdPs are the antithesis of varietals as there often (usually?) is no principal grape.
There are single-variety CdPs. Quite a few, in fact. Often grenache. Occasionally mourvdre. Often pumped up in one fashion or another...in the vineyard or in the cellar...and frequently the recipients of gobs of points from critics.

Beaucastel isn't necessarily representative. Many CdPs (in fact, many Southern Rhnes) are more than half -- sometimes much more than half -- a single grape. And so, my point was that if they're blends, Geyserville is a blend. If Geyserville can be considered a varietal zinfandel, then many CdPs can be considered varietal grenache.

Since I think obscures the differentiation between "varietal" and "blend" beyond utility, I think a more rigorous definition of "varietal" is more useful. I prefer 100% (though I'd make an exception for insignificant field variation), because otherwise I'm not quite sure where to draw the line. Do we separate varietal and non-varietal Cte-Rties, for example? If so, at what percentage of viognier do we separate the two? I think that's a pointless debate, and one we can avoid if we hold "varietal" to a 100% standard.

Even if we don't, however, I'd hope that it refer to wines intended as representative of that variety. A 90% Napa cabernet sauvignon, so labeled, would qualify. A variable-composition Margaux, so labeled, would not. I'd still prefer the more rigid definition, but I probably can't win that one.

Maybe a Chateauneuf made from a single variety (unless Rayas) should be henceforth known as a Gobble.
 
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