You and me both. Well, maybe not the mass-quantities stuff, but the general gist: I like to buy wines i know won't fall apart 6 months hence. And I'm not sure the orange whites do, but I also don't think they have all the magical dragon puff qualities that geeks assign to them. Perhaps we are all looking for miracles in this highly secular age? What ever. My personal take is that however interesting these are in the moment, they won't age well, or, worse, will become caricatures of themselves. Sort of like Ronald Reagan late in his second term.
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Skin-Contact Whites and Ageing
- Thread starter Levi Dalton
- Start date
You and me both. Well, maybe not the mass-quantities stuff, but the general gist: I like to buy wines i know won't fall apart 6 months hence. And I'm not sure the orange whites do, but I also don't think they have all the magical dragon puff qualities that geeks assign to them. Perhaps we are all looking for miracles in this highly secular age? What ever. My personal take is that however interesting these are in the moment, they won't age well, or, worse, will become caricatures of themselves. Sort of like Ronald Reagan late in his second term.
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
Or for those of us who lived with him as Gov of CA, his first term.originally posted by MarkS:
they won't age well, or, worse, will become caricatures of themselves. Sort of like Ronald Reagan late in his second term.
Steve Edmunds
Steve Edmunds
No, Zuni was the drunken one. At least vis a vis Gravner. But then again, you may not remember too clearly... (smiley emoticon here)originally posted by Thor:
Aren't they all?oone of which contributed to a hopeless, drunken argument with Thor
But actually, it was two arguments. We had a fairly sober argument about that same wine at Zuni a few years earlier.
Maybe we should go for the hat trick...
I'm pretty sure that I was reasonably unimpaired at Zuni, though I've been known to enthusiastically participate in arguments as if I were otherwise. Not so chez nous, which was well into the evening.No, Zuni was the drunken one. At least vis a vis Gravner. But then again, you may not remember too clearly... (smiley emoticon here)
Are we now having a meta-argument about the argument?
As a retailer who likes to buy such things only to have them sit on the shelves while waiting for the masses to head my proselytism, I'd be interested in such a gathering as well.
To put forth a self-serving suggestion which might work into some previous plans, is there any interest in setting this tasting a day or two prior to the June 4th jeeb?
Understandable if there's a need for more time to gather the wines, or a desire to space it further from what might be another night of indulgence.
To put forth a self-serving suggestion which might work into some previous plans, is there any interest in setting this tasting a day or two prior to the June 4th jeeb?
Understandable if there's a need for more time to gather the wines, or a desire to space it further from what might be another night of indulgence.
Steve Edmunds
Steve Edmunds
I was drunk. You were Thor.originally posted by Thor:
I'm pretty sure that I was reasonably unimpaired at Zuni, though I've been known to enthusiastically participate in arguments as if I were otherwise. Not so chez nous, which was well into the evening.No, Zuni was the drunken one. At least vis a vis Gravner. But then again, you may not remember too clearly... (smiley emoticon here)
Are we now having a meta-argument about the argument?
originally posted by MarkS:
Seriously. I wonder what is going on. If I buy a wine in a certain quantity, I would like to have some idea of how that wine will taste 6 months hence. But I can state flatly that I am unsure of certain skin-contact wines at this time, as far as their future development. Maybe we can all get a handle on the subject together. At least I put it out there.
You and me both. Well, maybe not the mass-quantities stuff, but the general gist: I like to buy wines i know won't fall apart 6 months hence. And I'm not sure the orange whites do, but I also don't think they have all the magical dragon puff qualities that geeks assign to them. Perhaps we are all looking for miracles in this highly secular age? What ever. My personal take is that however interesting these are in the moment, they won't age well, or, worse, will become caricatures of themselves. Sort of like Ronald Reagan late in his second term.
I agree with Mark and Levi. I find the wines beguiling and drink as many as I can get my hands on and try to turn people onto them whenever possible. I think that many of the wines drink on release and hold for a few years, but I've yet to see what I would call a significant trajectory of positive evolution.
Joe raises a good point that the methods seem to be a moving target, even within producer. It wasn't that long ago that Bea Santa Christina was made "straight". In the early 90s, Gravner was as well. So Gravner has been through at least 3 major cycles since I reached drinking age.
This is a fascinating project that I would love to participate in. Count me in and please give good notice so that I can plan travel.
How would you know? And how could you tell the difference? (emoticon redacted}I was drunk. You were Thor.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Cornelissen wines just went on sale at Crush. Sounds like another candidate for this event.
Robert Dentice
Robert Dentice
I would be very interested if you put together a tasting. My own guess is that the wines will not change as much from release as other more traditional wines but will still age well. The Fiorano wines could be good data points. Does anyone know if the Fiorano wines were skin contact whites?
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Or for those of us who lived with him as Gov of CA, his first term.originally posted by MarkS:
they won't age well, or, worse, will become caricatures of themselves. Sort of like Ronald Reagan late in his second term.
I dunno, Claude. Having lived through both his time as gov and as Pres, I was quite surprised at the transformation from actively malign agent of repression to "The Great Communicator". Can anyone forget the classic "If they want a bloodbath, we'll give them one" as he called out the Guard to occupy Berkeley? He and his butt monkey SI Hiyakawa then repeating the same move on the SF State campus? Sure, Iran-Contra was heinous and James Watt Satan's spawn, but voodoo economics and an anti-government agenda is to me a far cry from actively engaging in government assaults on its citizenry.
One of the least surprising revelations of the Reagan presidency to me was that he was suffering from Alzheimer's: as far as I was concerned, the striking personality change had already occurred prior to '80.
Mark Lipton
Steve Edmunds
Steve Edmunds
It was easy. You're a unique guy.originally posted by Thor:
How would you know? And how could you tell the difference? (emoticon redacted}I was drunk. You were Thor.
I blame extended skin contact.It was easy. You're a unique guy.
Eeeeeew.originally posted by Thor:
I blame extended skin contact.It was easy. You're a unique guy.
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
There isn't much of a track record (so far as I know) for, for instance, Carlaz, Harmoge, Giacomelli "Boboli", Casa Costa Piane "Tranquilo", "Coenobium", "Nottediluna" and others. To some degree there is a record of Kante, Radikon, and Ageno.
...
Seriously. I wonder what is going on. If I buy a wine in a certain quantity, I would like to have some idea of how that wine will taste 6 months hence. But I can state flatly that I am unsure of certain skin-contact wines at this time, as far as their future development. Maybe we can all get a handle on the subject together. At least I put it out there.
Levi- have you had Bea's Arboreus? A unique wine from the Coenobium, and in some senses closer to the Santa Chiara. But it does have 4 years in bottle (and 454 on lees) and might give some sense of the trajectory of the others (as well as especially the Coenobium Rusticum- which is excellent).
Also...
*bump*originally posted by Seth Hill:
To put forth a self-serving suggestion which might work into some previous plans, is there any interest in setting this tasting a day or two prior to the June 4th jeeb?
Understandable if there's a need for more time to gather the wines, or a desire to space it further from what might be another night of indulgence.
originally posted by Seth Hill:
Levi- have you had Bea's Arboreus? A unique wine from the Coenobium, and in some senses closer to the Santa Chiara. But it does have 4 years in bottle (and 454 on lees) and might give some sense of the trajectory of the others (as well as especially the Coenobium Rusticum- which is excellent).
I've had the Arboreus. I enjoyed it, but I'm not sure it is at the same level as some others. FWIW, the current vintage of Radikon was 2003 the last time I checked. I think the point is that there doesn't seem to be much point in continued cellaring. But then again, that IS the point. None of us really know.
*bump*originally posted by Seth Hill:
To put forth a self-serving suggestion which might work into some previous plans, is there any interest in setting this tasting a day or two prior to the June 4th jeeb?
Understandable if there's a need for more time to gather the wines, or a desire to space it further from what might be another night of indulgence.
No way it could work on the 4th. Have to be a weekend for me.
Oliver McCrum
Oliver McCrum
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
To speak to the cloudy question, I think that is a separate issue: see for example Villa Dora "Vigna del Vulcano", certainly cloudy, but not, if I understand correctly, macerated on the skins.
How many bottles of this wine have you had? I import that wine and I've never had a cloudy bottle. Maybe the bottle was over-chilled?
Levi Dalton
Levi Dalton
originally posted by Oliver McCrum:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
To speak to the cloudy question, I think that is a separate issue: see for example Villa Dora "Vigna del Vulcano", certainly cloudy, but not, if I understand correctly, macerated on the skins.
How many bottles of this wine have you had? I import that wine and I've never had a cloudy bottle. Maybe the bottle was over-chilled?
Something like 300 bottles (give or take) of the 2004 have rolled through the restaurant since we started pouring it by the glass some time ago.
I have had people return it out of hand, without tasting, because they objected to the cloudy character.
But of course we get it from another importer than yourself.