New Charity Wines in Burgundy

C

Claude Kolm

Claude Kolm
Hopefully, this won't get deleted as spam as it involves charity.

We all know of the charitable wines from the Hospices de Beaune and several other lesser-known charities such as the Hospices des Nuits and Hospices du Beaujolais.

Domaine de la Romane-Conti, Maison Drouhin, Domaine Dujac, Maison Faiveley, Domaine Roulot, Maison Louis Latour, Domaine Leflaive, and Maison Louis Jadot are uniting to create wines that will be sold for charity. 100% of the proceeds will go to help the poorest in the Cte d'Or.

Further information at http://www.climats-du-coeur.com/ .
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
It is nice to see that producers both profound and mediocre can come together for such an endeavour.
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I presume your snark is directed at Latour. I've never visited Latour because the wines I've had have mostly left me feeling "so what?". But a few years ago, when Jacques Lardire, a straight-shooter, found out that I didn't go there, he said I really should and praised their wines. Apparently, respect for them in Burgundy is a lot higher than it is here.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
The French probably have a greater respect for pasteurization, having invented it.
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A few observations:

(1) That doesn't speak to the Latour whites (of which I am less of a fan, too, than many others) which are what are at issue here;

(2) Funny, how no one complains about it in the bottles of Latour from 40-50-60 years ago (they began the process in the 1920s);

(3) You'll see very good notes for some of the more recent RSV's from some very demanding critics;

(4) Last but not least, no one complains when Beaucastel follows a similar process or when Pousse d'Or used a similar process in more difficult vintages some decades ago.
 
I thought they'd been doing it even longer, Claude, there being some family connection with Pasteur himself?
I had a few really outstanding old Latour reds last year, particularly Pommard Grands Epenots 59 and Charmes-Chambertin 66.
 
Wow, I had no idea it went that far back. In that case since I've had a pretty good '79 I'll have to take back at least some of the unkind thoughts I've had about them over the years.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
The French probably have a greater respect for pasteurization, having invented it.
Click to expand...
A few observations:

(1) That doesn't speak to the Latour whites (of which I am less of a fan, too, than many others) which are what are at issue here;

(2) Funny, how no one complains about it in the bottles of Latour from 40-50-60 years ago (they began the process in the 1920s);

(3) You'll see very good notes for some of the more recent RSV's from some very demanding critics;

(4) Last but not least, no one complains when Beaucastel follows a similar process or when Pousse d'Or used a similar process in more difficult vintages some decades ago.
Click to expand...

Well, if you would like to get all serious about it, I guess I would point out that:

(1) Year after year the Latour Corton-Charlemagne disappoints, and shows itself to be a classic example of a mediocre wine carrying grand nomenclature. Also, where certain whites from Latour in less esteemed parcels do overdeliver vis a vis their price, there is a certain house style sameness that overrides any sense of a wine speaking articulately.

(2) It is a common phenomenon to forget about wines from early generations when the current regime in place churns out mediocrity year after year. It would also be surprising if across the whole range that Latour makes, something weren't ageable and decent. I've had Corton-Grancey from the '50s. It was decent, good even. But certainly not enough to change my opinion of the house.

(3) I've seen good notes on Potel from some very demanding critics. So what? I still wouldn't spend my dime on it. It's truly too bad that instead of just saying, well I really like such and such, people still have to resort to the supposed trump card of "what respected critics think". I personally disagree with respected critics so often that it is practically laughable. But I say what I think, not what some scribe puts in his notebook.

(4) I've had mediocre Beaucastel, and I've certainly had mediocre Pousse d'Or. I'm not sure what your point is supposed to prove.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
The French probably have a greater respect for pasteurization, having invented it.
Click to expand...
A few observations:

(1) That doesn't speak to the Latour whites (of which I am less of a fan, too, than many others) which are what are at issue here;

(2) Funny, how no one complains about it in the bottles of Latour from 40-50-60 years ago (they began the process in the 1920s);

(3) You'll see very good notes for some of the more recent RSV's from some very demanding critics;

(4) Last but not least, no one complains when Beaucastel follows a similar process or when Pousse d'Or used a similar process in more difficult vintages some decades ago.
Click to expand...

Well, if you would like to get all serious about it, I guess I would point out that:

(1) Year after year the Latour Corton-Charlemagne disappoints, and shows itself to be a classic example of a mediocre wine carrying grand nomenclature. Also, where certain whites from Latour in less esteemed parcels do overdeliver vis a vis their price, there is a certain house style sameness that overrides any sense of a wine speaking articulately.

(2) It is a common phenomenon to forget about wines from early generations when the current regime in place churns out mediocrity year after year. It would also be surprising if across the whole range that Latour makes, something weren't ageable and decent. I've had Corton-Grancey from the '50s. It was decent, good even. But certainly not enough to change my opinion of the house.

(3) I've seen good notes on Potel from some very demanding critics. So what? I still wouldn't spend my dime on it. It's truly too bad that instead of just saying, well I really like such and such, people still have to resort to the supposed trump card of "what respected critics think". I personally disagree with respected critics so often that it is practically laughable. But I say what I think, not what some scribe puts in his notebook.

(4) I've had mediocre Beaucastel, and I've certainly had mediocre Pousse d'Or. I'm not sure what your point is supposed to prove.
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(1) your comment here is irrelevant to your comment on pasteurization. (And note, I've not hidden the fact that I am no fan of the whites or the reds, either.)

(2) Again, your comment here about the current mediocrity, which again I do not dispute, is irrelevant to the pasteurization, too.

(3) Each to his or her own opinion. But that's different from a condemnation as though you were the sole judge who counted. We all know that TPG is the only guy with unchallengeable taste. ;)

(4) Again, you're avoiding the logic of the proposition that I've put forth. Anyone who has had enough wine from any property can claim that they've had mediocre bottles from them, too.

In short, I find your comment about the pasteurization to have been gratuitous, as demonstrated by the fact that you cannot defend it here. Whether you are a admirer of Latour or not (and as I've made clear, I am not), nothing justifies gratuitous remarks about them.
 
Your defense of something mediocre is something I find hard to understand. It seems that while I care about the merits of the wine, you care about the argument. Feel free to have it with yourself.

It was obvious that my reference to the pasteurization was meant as a bit of smilemaker. My original point, which you already assented to (and which makes it all the more stunning that you have taken the tack that you have) is that Latour is a maker of mediocre wines. Remember when I said (feel free to scroll up if you don't): "It is nice to see that producers both profound and mediocre can come together for such an endeavour." What exactly is your argument with that statement?

Frankly, though, I don't care what your argument is. I'll just go back to drinking some decent wine, saving the Latour for the likes of you.
 
Levi -- You've missed my point again. I've made it quite clear that I have no issue with you on the quality of Latour wines, and in fact agree. But I also pointed out that there are people whose opinions deserve respect who have other views of Latour's wines. My interrelated points are (1) express your opinions, but be conscious of the fact that they are just opinions, (2) there is no excuse for gratuitous attacks (you now say it was a smile maker, but it certainly did not come across as one to me either in the initial post that raised it or in your subsequent post that attempted to defend it), and (3) one must always remain humble before wine and admit the possibility that one is mistaken. Whether it is Aubert de Villaine, Jean-Louis Chave, Roberto Conterno, or plenty, plenty of others that one is talking with, I am struck by their humility and their refraining from attacking others who are merely doing mediocre (vs. those who are cheating).
 
originally posted by Thor:
Rarely has Chris Coad's absence been felt so keenly.
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If you run away with Kane the board will have hit the trifecta.
Commenting on Claude & Levi sounds much like much to do over nothing. They are just much more sensitive than you and I Thor.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Levi -- You've missed my point again. I've made it quite clear that I have no issue with you on the quality of Latour wines, and in fact agree. But I also pointed out that there are people whose opinions deserve respect who have other views of Latour's wines. My interrelated points are (1) express your opinions, but be conscious of the fact that they are just opinions, (2) there is no excuse for gratuitous attacks (you now say it was a smile maker, but it certainly did not come across as one to me either in the initial post that raised it or in your subsequent post that attempted to defend it), and (3) one must always remain humble before wine and admit the possibility that one is mistaken. Whether it is Aubert de Villaine, Jean-Louis Chave, Roberto Conterno, or plenty, plenty of others that one is talking with, I am struck by their humility and their refraining from attacking others who are merely doing mediocre (vs. those who are cheating).
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(1) As my English instructor in college said, why must you preface the piece with "in your opinion"? This is all your opinion.

(2) It isn't a gratuitous attack if it is in fact true, and mentioned simply. Interrelated with, your lack of humor, while entirely evident, is not my problem.

(3) You are an incredible and insatiable name dropper. I have met all of the people you have mentioned (Lardiere, de Villaine, Chave, Conterno) several times, but I have no need to bandy that about like it is something that makes what I say more correct, or as if it marks me as one of the "in" gang. Frankly, use of THAT rhetorical device on your part is gratuitous and without merit. Again, I just care about the wines. But I mean, what the hell, I'm willing to mention that Roberto Conterno has sent me cakes in the mail, that I have lunched with Chave, that...well, you know what, I just won't go any further, although the pull of the dark side certainly is strong. I don't need to prop up what I am saying with other critic's or winemaker's help, you see? Interrelated, perhaps you don't fully understand what a buyer of wine does, which is discriminate between them. While it may content winemakers never to cast aspersions, what is the point of a buyer not sharing likes and dislikes?

Anyway, Louis Latour makes a flood of mediocre wine each vintage. Perhaps one of two positive outcomes will happen: (1) someone in charge at Latour will hear that enough times that they decide to mend their ways or (2) the market will in the end take care of that for them. Picking nits around the essential, underlying truth of the situation is without merit.
 
originally posted by David M. Bueker:
All I can say is that I had a '90 Latour Corton Grancey with Jamie Goode a while back that was delicious.
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That's great!!

Hey, let me ask you, have you also had a fine example of one of these?

Aloxe-Corton 1er Cru "Clos du Chpitre"
Aloxe-Corton 1er Cru Les Chaillots
Aloxe-Corton Vin du Bicentenaire
Aloxe-Corton Domaine Latour
Auxey-Duresses Blanc

Btard-Montrachet Grand Cru
Beaujolais-Lanci
Beaujolais-Villages
Beaujolais-Villages Chameroy
Beaune 1er Cru
Beaune 1er Cru "Aux Cras"
Beaune 1er Cru "Cent Vignes"
Beaune 1er Cru "Clos des Mouches"
Beaune 1er Cru "Domaine Latour"
Beaune 1er cru "Grves"
Beaune 1er Cru "Les Aigrots"
Beaune 1er Cru "Perrires"
Beaune 1er Cru "Vignes Franches"
Beaune 1er Cru Blanc
Beaune 1er Cru rouge
Beaune Blanc
Beaune Blanc "Clos Saint Dsir"
Beaune Rouge
Bienvenues-Btard-Montrachet Grand Cru
Bonnes Mares Grand Cru
Bourgogne Aligot
Bourgogne Blanc Anniversaire
Bourgogne Blanc Cuve Latour
Bourgogne Passetoutgrain
Bourgogne Rouge Anniversaire
Bourgogne Rouge Cuve Latour
Bouzeron
Brouilly Les Saburins

Chablis
Chablis 1er Cru
Chablis 1er Cru "Beauroy"
Chablis 1er Cru Fourchaume
Chablis 1er Cru Montmains
Chablis Grand Cru "Bougros"
Chablis Grand Cru Blanchots
Chablis Grand Cru Vaudsir
Chablis La Chanfleure
Chambertin Grand Cru "Clos de Bze"
Chambertin Grand Cru Cuve Hritiers Latour
Chambolle Musigny 1er Cru "Les Charmes"
Chambolle Musigny 1er Cru "Les Chatelots"
Chambolle-Musigny
Chambolle-Musigny 1er Cru
Chardonnay d'Ardche
Chardonnay Bourgogne
Charmes-Chambertin Grand Cru
Chassagne Montrachet 1er Cru "Morgeot" Rouge
Chassagne-Montrachet 1er Cru "Cailleret"
Chassagne-Montrachet 1er Cru "Les Chenevottes"
Chassagne-Montrachet 1er Cru "Morgeot" Blanc
Chassagne-Montrachet 1er Cru Blanc
Chassagne-Montrachet Blanc
Chassagne-Montrachet Rouge
Chnas
Chevalier-Montrachet Grand cru Les Demoiselles
Chorey les Beaune
Clos de la Roche Grand Cru
Clos Saint Denis Grand Cru
Clos Vougeot Grand Cru
Corton Grand Cru Clos de la Vigne au Saint
Corton Grand Cru Domaine Latour
Corton-Charlemagne Grand Cru
Cte-de-Beaune-Villages
Cte-de-Nuits Villages
Criots-Btard-Montrachet Grand Cru

Domaine de Valmoissine
Duet

Echzeaux Grand Cru

Fixin
Fleurie Les Garans

Gevrey-Chambertin
Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru
Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru "Cazetiers"
Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru "Les Corbeaux"
Givry Blanc
Givry Rouge
Grand Ardche
Grands Echzeaux Grand Cru

Julinas

Latricires-Chambertin Grand Cru
Le Bourgogne de Louis Latour Blanc
Le Bourgogne de Louis Latour Rouge
Le Chardonnay de Chardonnay

Mcon-Lugny
Mcon-Lugny Les Genivres
Mcon-Villages
Mcon-Villages Chameroy
Maranges
Maranges 1er Cru 'La Fussire'
Marsannay
Marsannay Blanc
Mazis-Chambertin Grand Cru
Mercurey Blanc
Mercurey Rouge
Meursault 1er Cru "Goutte dOr"
Meursault 1er Cru "Charmes"
Meursault 1er Cru "Chteau de Blagny"
Meursault 1er Cru "Genevrires"
Meursault 1er Cru "Perrires"
Meursault 1er Cru "Poruzots"
Meursault 1er Cru Blanc
Meursault Blanc
Meursault Rouge
Montagny
Montagny 1er Cru La Grande Roche
Monthlie 'Clos des Toisires' Blanc
Monthlie 'Clos des Toisires' Rouge
Monthlie Blanc
Monthlie Rouge
Montrachet Grand Cru
Morey-Saint-Denis
Morey-Saint-Denis 1er Cru
Morgon Les Charmes
Morgon Les Corcelettes
Moulin--Vent Les Michelons

Nuits-Saint-Georges
Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Cru
Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Cru "Aux Chaignots"
Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Cru "Clos des Argillires"
Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Cru "Les Crots"
Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Cru "Les Damodes"

Pernand-Vergelesses 1er Cru Ile des Vergelesses
Pernand-Vergelesses Blanc
Pernand-Vergelesses Rouge
Pinot Noir
Pommard
Pommard 1er Cru "Les Epenots"
Pommard 1er Cru
Pommard 1er Cru "Les Rugiens"
Pouilly-Fuiss
Pouilly-Vinzelles 'En Paradis'
Puligny-Montrachet
Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru 'Hameau de Blagny'
Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru Les Truffires
Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru Sous le Puits
Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru
Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru La Garenne
Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru Les Champgains
Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru Les Folatires
Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru Les Referts

Regni La Roche Thulon
Romane-Saint-Vivant Grand Cru ' Les Quatre Journaux '
Rully Blanc
Rully Rouge

Saint-Aubin
Saint-Romain
Saint-Vran
Saint-Vran Les Deux Moulins
Santenay 1er Cru "La Comme"
Santenay Blanc
Santenay Rouge
Santenay Rouge 1er Cru
Savigny-ls-Beaune 1er Cru
Savigny-ls-Beaune 1er Cru "Les Serpentires"
Savigny-ls-Beaune Blanc
Savigny-ls-Beaune Rouge

Viognier
Vir-Cless
Volnay
Volnay 1er Cru 'Clos des Chnes'
Volnay 1er Cru 'En Chevret'
Volnay 1er Cru 'Les Mitans'
Volnay 1er Cru Rouge
Volnay 1er Cru Santenots
Vosne-Romane
Vosne-Romane 1er Cru
Vosne-Romane 1er Cru "Les Chaumes"
Vosne-Romane 1er Cru Beaumonts
Vosne-Romane 1er Cru Les Suchots

Because Louis Latour turns out each of those bottlings as well.

Notice the Viognier. That's nice.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Levi -- You've missed my point again. I've made it quite clear that I have no issue with you on the quality of Latour wines, and in fact agree. But I also pointed out that there are people whose opinions deserve respect who have other views of Latour's wines. My interrelated points are (1) express your opinions, but be conscious of the fact that they are just opinions, (2) there is no excuse for gratuitous attacks (you now say it was a smile maker, but it certainly did not come across as one to me either in the initial post that raised it or in your subsequent post that attempted to defend it), and (3) one must always remain humble before wine and admit the possibility that one is mistaken. Whether it is Aubert de Villaine, Jean-Louis Chave, Roberto Conterno, or plenty, plenty of others that one is talking with, I am struck by their humility and their refraining from attacking others who are merely doing mediocre (vs. those who are cheating).
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Claude, thank you. I'm entirely fed up with people having opinions about wine in the same way as they have opinions about the football teams they support, and you are one of the few authorities on the subject who don't make me feel as though I were insane.
 
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