Let's talk about VA

I may have overstated things; it's not that I cleave to wines with VA, but that I can appreciate a bit of it; its lift, yes, and, as Steve Edmunds says, the raciness it can impart to certain whites.

For the record, I do not paint my fingernails.

But I do drink Mosse.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Yixin:
Joe, my guess is that VA (at the same concentration) in unfinished wine is probably more repulsive, with everything else that's going on. That was my impression with some Sauternes barrel samples, anyhow.

Is pyrazine tolerance not learned as well? I thought most of our sensory responses are (trying to remember where I read the kids eating faeces study).
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Leaving out the coprophagy, I think of Zul and fatboy as folks with an unlearned aversion to sauvignon blanc. and they'd certainly had plenty of opportunity to learn to like good examples. I think they have a different allele than I do, and react differently.
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Surely the only wineboard on which I've ever seen the word "allele." Not to mention a genuinely learned discussion first thing in the morning. Being neither a chemist nor a biologist, I have nothing to add but thanks everyone.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Joel Stewart:

"over time" being the duration of an open bottle, (ie Kay's experience)?...or "over time" as in "last month's '07 morgon was vinegar-y and this month a second bottle is nail polish-y"?
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Nothing to do with the bottle being open. Pretty slow reaction, will adjust over months.
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Or years. At the pH of wine, Fischer esterification isn't a fast process. And the equilibrium constant is pretty damn close to 1.

On another front, since I work with ethyl acetate on a regular basis, I've been able to note differing qualitative perceptions of ethyl acetate. One friend, now a prominent researcher at Imperial College, couldn't stand the smell, as to him it smelled like acetic acid (!!) Most people, OTOH, tend to associate its smell with overripe fruit, not a terribly unpleasant smell. It may have something to do with differing pH of the olfactory mucosa, resulting in in situ hydrolysis of ethyl acetate.

Mark Lipton
 
There is plenty of evidence of genetic differences affecting food interactions. Off the top of my head I can think of several: the taste of cilantro, the smell of asparagus in urine, the taste of sulfur in onions or cabbage.

Presumably, those who are "super tasters" got that way because a gene told their body to build more papillae on the tongue.
 
originally posted by MLipton:
It may have something to do with differing pH of the olfactory mucosa, resulting in in situ hydrolysis of ethyl acetate.
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More likely enzymatic, I'd bet.
 
originally posted by Yixin:
Have fb and Zul learned using Vatan yet?
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we are talking sauvignon blanc here. not ass-fucking. learning doesn't come into it.

fb.
 
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
I may have overstated things; it's not that I cleave to wines with VA, but that I can appreciate a bit of it; its lift, yes, and, as Steve Edmunds says, the raciness it can impart to certain whites.
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My response varies depending on how big the VA component is in a wine - and how it's expressing itself; I can't handle over the top wines with a lot of it or dried grape reds where it's a part of the aromatic profile or there's a strong nail polish element.
Although I've really liked wines like Lopez de Heredia Gran Reservas or older (pre-goop era) Greenock Creek reds where I've found a touch of VA that usually expresses itself with a balsamic-like element - but when it gets to the point of reeking of nail polish/acetone, then I generally struggle with the wines.

Cheers,

Salil
 
I suspect I'm more tolerant of VA on the first glass then on the last.
On a side note, perhaps the straw that broke the camel's back with me and Parker was his 100 point score (and considerable lauding) of the 1997 Harlan Estate, cab. One of the most VA ridden wines I have ever smelled and well beyond my tolerances.
Best, Jim
 
Most people, OTOH, tend to associate its smell with overripe fruit
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Question: is it actually the same aroma, or is there a set of aromas that can be confused?

I ask because the reason I find Turleys and Carlisles undrinkable -- and I do, literally so -- is the overwhelming VA, not because of the fruit or alcohol. Obviously, they're poster-children for what I'd call grossly overripe fruit, and much of the world seems to adore the wines, but while I can often see what others like about wines I hate, I just can't see it in these cases; I think the wines are unrecoverably flawed. So am I just conflating overripe fruit and VA, or is it the same chemical?
 
originally posted by MLipton:
. . . to him it smelled like acetic acid (!!) Most people, OTOH, tend to associate its smell with overripe fruit, not a terribly unpleasant smell.
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I have had this same experience.
 
BTW, my mmm comment above was almost entirely in reference to my love for Musar. Thor and other VA haters above - how do you feel about Musar? Why do you hate freedom?
 
I like Musar a lot. Sometimes, the VA mutes my enjoyment, though with Musar it's hardly the only flaw one might have to worry about, but sometimes it doesn't.

And I don't hate Freedom. Anyone who puts a bunch of supermodels in their video and blows shit up is OK in my book.
 
originally posted by Thor:
Most people, OTOH, tend to associate its smell with overripe fruit
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Question: is it actually the same aroma, or is there a set of aromas that can be confused?
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Almost certainly there are multiple aromas, all of which constitute what we think of as "overripe fruit." I'd guess that many of them are congeners of ethyl acetate: things like methyl propionate, ethyl propionate, butyl acetate, etc.

I ask because the reason I find Turleys and Carlisles undrinkable -- and I do, literally so -- is the overwhelming VA, not because of the fruit or alcohol. Obviously, they're poster-children for what I'd call grossly overripe fruit, and much of the world seems to adore the wines, but while I can often see what others like about wines I hate, I just can't see it in these cases; I think the wines are unrecoverably flawed. So am I just conflating overripe fruit and VA, or is it the same chemical?
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Tricky topic. Literally, VA should arise from the presence of acids not esters, but as we've already discussed some people may perceive certain esters as their acidic component. I find those Zins raisiny and overripe but not poster children for VA. Amarone, OTOH, has both surmaturit and a hint of VA. How are you with it?

Mark Lipton
 
Amarone, OTOH, has both surmaturit and a hint of VA. How are you with it?
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As mentioned earlier, sweet and dried-grape reds are problematic for me (ruby Porto is usually an exception, though I can have trouble with tawny on occasion). So, obviously, Amarone can sometimes be a struggle. It seems that I'm better with the ultra-clean (as botrytis-free as possible) versions, but I haven't done an extensive study, and there are exceptions, e.g.:

Masi 1990 Amarone della Valpolicella Classico (Veneto) Prune and roasted meat, but balanced in the context of this very particular style. Theres a bit of off-putting rot, but it doesnt really distract. Nor does the expected VA. What Id like is a little more complexity, but thats not easily found in Amarone. (9/08)

The fact is, though, that I rarely seek it out. Similarly, when we were in Collioure a few years ago, I found myself drinking a lot of the dry reds, ross, and whites, but not really enjoying the Banyuls as much as I would have hoped. It was a wine-by-wine thing, as with Amarone. (Or Musar.)

Anyway, thanks for the help re: overripe fruit vs. VA. It'd be interesting to have actual numbers on, say, Carlisle's zins, but I don't want to pick an unnecessary fight with Mike Officer (who's as touchy as I am, sometimes).
 
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