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total bonehead, no matter how you look at it
seriously pissed me off
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who's watching the TDF coverage?
- Thread starter Bwood
- Start date
total bonehead, no matter how you look at it
seriously pissed me off
Arjun Mendiratta
Arjun Mendiratta
I take it you guys don't believe his explanation, then?
Contador sputtered the rationalization that he was trying to take more time on Wiggins. Does that make me go "oh yeah, OK, sure, good move"? Um, NO.
It is abundantly clear that Berto puts his own interests first. That, and he must not trust Bruyneel. He's obviously talented but foolishly headstrong.
It is abundantly clear that Berto puts his own interests first. That, and he must not trust Bruyneel. He's obviously talented but foolishly headstrong.
That was a response to Bruyneel's press interview the previous day, saying he had a strong personal bond with Armstrong he could never have with Contador, that since last year there has been tension and that their relationship is correct but strictly professional, and this and that. With a team leader like that, I don't much blame Contador for trying to increase his margin as much as he can every day in the mountains. What happened when he was cut off from Armstrong on one of those wind cuts in the flat, and Bruyneel had Armstrong on the attack, during the early stages, may still be in the back of his mind. This Astana team is dysfunctional. You don't have a young champ like Contador as your leader and suddenly pull Armstrong, at his age but with his special relationship with Bruyneel, back out of a magician's hat and introduce him as a co-leader.
While it pains me to agree with Victor and his jingoistic support of Contador, he's got it more or less right.
But seriously, if you were Contador would you think that Bruyneel has your best interests in mind? Sure he wants you to win, but he REALLY wants to get Lance on the podium and wants him to be in striking distance in case of a crash.
That doesn't mean that Contador isn't brash, headstrong or foolish. He's a young cyclist, not a rocket scientist.
I also think there is a double standard. If that was Lance on that climb with Pop versus Ullrich and Kloden form T-Mobile, would anyone care that he attacked and tried to put more time into Ullrich? I don't think so.
Contador has clearly shown his dominance and the only goal of a team is to have it's leader win. If another rider gets to the podium, that's nice but sorta beside the point.
Can't wait to see what happens today. What if Contador crashes and Wiggins puts 4 minutes into him?
But seriously, if you were Contador would you think that Bruyneel has your best interests in mind? Sure he wants you to win, but he REALLY wants to get Lance on the podium and wants him to be in striking distance in case of a crash.
That doesn't mean that Contador isn't brash, headstrong or foolish. He's a young cyclist, not a rocket scientist.
I also think there is a double standard. If that was Lance on that climb with Pop versus Ullrich and Kloden form T-Mobile, would anyone care that he attacked and tried to put more time into Ullrich? I don't think so.
Contador has clearly shown his dominance and the only goal of a team is to have it's leader win. If another rider gets to the podium, that's nice but sorta beside the point.
Can't wait to see what happens today. What if Contador crashes and Wiggins puts 4 minutes into him?
Olaf Rdiger
Olaf Rdiger
Bravo Contador! what a TT!
Yes, thoroughly jingoistic, VLM. Bravo for your insight. But... what were the jingoistic features in my discourse, please? I didn't quite catch them myself. Perhaps you would like to point them out to me? It's just my bad journalistic habit: before we use an offensive adjective, we like to have enough facts at hand to justify its use...Victor and his jingoistic support of Contador
Anyway, I'll try to make amends on my own. Here's an attempt at avoiding jingoism:
Contador was passable today in the time trial.
OK? Or is that still too strident?
I think the dynamics are more complex than can be simply stated here. Considering the history, it;s natural that Bruyneel and Armstrong have a deeper bond. But Bruyneel and Armstrong are pros and
smart enough to know what is best for team success. There was a path to careful media management and
also race direction that maximized everybody's interests. Trust and patience were required.
B and A did not create the split in the Camargue, and Astana did not contribute till it was clear the gap wouldn't be closed, only then did they work. The strength of the team made multiple podium finishes
a strong possibility, so why not manage with that goal in mind. It was looking quite possible for Contador to be safely first and for Armstrong and Kloden to be placed in 2nd and 3rd.
I don't see a double standard at all, the situations being distinctly different, Contador was
already safely ahead of the Schlecks and did not need to attack, they aren't ITT threats. His excuse was Wiggins but the group was steadily taking time from Wiggins already anyway. Had the group of 4 crossed the top together, neither Contador nor Kloden would have lost any time to the Schlecks and Kloden would have had a well deserved chance at the stage win. Contador fucked it up. The Armstrong/Ullrich situation you describe does not equate situationally.
Contador's dominance is starting to generate doping questions which happens whenever somebody
appears that strong. How's this, if Lance were to finish second, and then Contador has a failed test
revealed later on...
smart enough to know what is best for team success. There was a path to careful media management and
also race direction that maximized everybody's interests. Trust and patience were required.
B and A did not create the split in the Camargue, and Astana did not contribute till it was clear the gap wouldn't be closed, only then did they work. The strength of the team made multiple podium finishes
a strong possibility, so why not manage with that goal in mind. It was looking quite possible for Contador to be safely first and for Armstrong and Kloden to be placed in 2nd and 3rd.
I don't see a double standard at all, the situations being distinctly different, Contador was
already safely ahead of the Schlecks and did not need to attack, they aren't ITT threats. His excuse was Wiggins but the group was steadily taking time from Wiggins already anyway. Had the group of 4 crossed the top together, neither Contador nor Kloden would have lost any time to the Schlecks and Kloden would have had a well deserved chance at the stage win. Contador fucked it up. The Armstrong/Ullrich situation you describe does not equate situationally.
Contador's dominance is starting to generate doping questions which happens whenever somebody
appears that strong. How's this, if Lance were to finish second, and then Contador has a failed test
revealed later on...
And of course we know from experience that Armstrong will never fail a doping test himself, even if administered by those dastardly French who hate his guts...
Contador has never had any problem with doping tests, and having won all three major tours already, he's had a few of those.
Contador has never had any problem with doping tests, and having won all three major tours already, he's had a few of those.
Cole Kendall
Cole Kendall
originally posted by .sasha:
originally posted by Cole Kendall:
Was Contador's move to lose Kloeden as stupid as it seemed?
total bonehead, no matter how you look at it
seriously pissed me off
Yeah, but it was the bonehead move of a rider that knows he's the best rider this year by a wide margin and for whom the tactics are secondary. Talent and conditioning over tactics and strategy any day. Not that it wasn't disappointing as Kloden definitely deserved better. But as vlm says, would anyone care if armstrong had done the same to a teammate in 2004? Probably not.
So Contador more or less finishes things off today in a dominating performance today, leaving no doubt who is the best, but at the same time you imagine Kloden thinking maybe he'd rather ride for Radio Shack next year. And you are left wondering if Contador wouldn't prefer to share the podium with the Schlecks than his teammates. An odd but very entertaining TDF.
It was such a sweet parting potshot by Bruyneel: he covered the time trial with his car behind - his Tour-leading team leader? No, of course. He followed his buddy Armstrong.
By the way, former Formula One champ Fernando Alonso announced yesterday he intends to form a new cycling team around Contador. His buddy.
By the way, former Formula One champ Fernando Alonso announced yesterday he intends to form a new cycling team around Contador. His buddy.
Scott Kraft
Scott Kraft
And the US spectators complain about free agency?! Imagine if the leagues declared that only one-year contracts were allowed? What fun!
originally posted by VS:
Yes, thoroughly jingoistic, VLM. Bravo for your insight. But... what were the jingoistic features in my discourse, please? I didn't quite catch them myself. Perhaps you would like to point them out to me? It's just my bad journalistic habit: before we use an offensive adjective, we like to have enough facts at hand to justify its use...Victor and his jingoistic support of Contador
Anyway, I'll try to make amends on my own. Here's an attempt at avoiding jingoism:
Contador was passable today in the time trial.
OK? Or is that still too strident?
Victor, you are way too sensitive.
This was in reference to your supposed defense of all things Spanish.
We're years beyond this kind of bickering at this point.
Just a friendly joke. Relax.
originally posted by VS:
It was such a sweet parting potshot by Bruyneel: he covered the time trial with his car behind - his Tour-leading team leader? No, of course. He followed his buddy Armstrong.
By the way, former Formula One champ Fernando Alonso announced yesterday he intends to form a new cycling team around Contador. His buddy.
Did you hear what Contador said about his 2-way radio...it wasn't working!!!
This is some seriously funny shit at this point.
I say fuck it, all team shit is done, every Astana rider for themselves!!!
Wouldn't it be thrilling to see Lance and Contador duke ti out on the Ventoux? We would then know for sure how far rage can propel a human being. Lance might ride himself to death. The French would love him forever.
originally posted by VS:
It was such a sweet parting potshot by Bruyneel: he covered the time trial with his car behind - his Tour-leading team leader? No, of course. He followed his buddy Armstrong.
I thought Contador seemed a little paranoid about the Bruyneel thing starting the TDF; it's hard to say now that he was being paranoid.
originally posted by Cole Kendall:
As a recovering empiricist (albeit in matters far from cycling) I have to admit that I found the following quite fascinating:
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/07/tour-2009-contador-climb.html
Interesting. The gradient factor is the black box here. How it is calculated doesn't make much sense to me. Linearizing something that is clearly non-linear is fraught with problems.
And me, thinking that I had just proven my objectivity here by providing lists of truly horrible Spanish wines... :-)originally posted by VLM:
Victor, you are way too sensitive.
This was in reference to your supposed defense of all things Spanish.
OK, I'm too sensitive. It's probably that jingoism is a particularly repulsive concept to me and makes my hair bristle...
Cole Kendall
Cole Kendall
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Cole Kendall:
As a recovering empiricist (albeit in matters far from cycling) I have to admit that I found the following quite fascinating:
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/07/tour-2009-contador-climb.html
Interesting. The gradient factor is the black box here. How it is calculated doesn't make much sense to me. Linearizing something that is clearly non-linear is fraught with problems.
I agree; I can't quite get my head around trying to map a ride over a varied terrain with wind into a scalar (much less the people use this data along with his weight and oxygen intake) but the attempt to address sporting performance in a serious way makes the sabermetricians looks a bit 19th century.
Do they do this for sprinting or hammer throw?
So only 38 seconds separate Lance and Frank Schleck. Will Lance hang on? Will Frank succeed in knocking him out of third? Will Contador do anything to help Lance?
No, Yes and No.
Based on what we've seen so far, Frank, with Andy's help should be able to easily take back that amount of time. It might even be 2 minutes or something. I think Contador would rather not see Lance on the podium.
No, Yes and No.
Based on what we've seen so far, Frank, with Andy's help should be able to easily take back that amount of time. It might even be 2 minutes or something. I think Contador would rather not see Lance on the podium.