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Huh
- Thread starter Yixin
- Start date
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
When the greater emphasis is on the points, the lesser emphasis is on the product.
That's awesome.
For anyone who doesn't know, all those (Jumilla or whatever hot-ass weird Spanish place) wines are like that.
originally posted by VLM:
Lyle Fass
is posting on that bored I've never heard of?
What a fucking hypocrite!!!
He likes the company better, I suppose. It's mainly eBob diaspora from the
Mark Lipton
originally posted by VLM:
Lyle Fass
is posting on that bored I've never heard of?
Indeed. Who set up this alterna-board.
Is that where Chris Coad has gone?
Are you really sure we are past bickering?originally posted by VLM:
For anyone who doesn't know, all those (Jumilla or whatever hot-ass weird Spanish place) wines are like that.
Look for Casa Castillo Pie Franco 2006, Ad Gaude 2005 Heretat de Cesilia, Mira salinas 2005, Ponce PF 2007 or a few more of those wines from that hot-ass weird place... Taste a couple of them, and please report back.
originally posted by VS:
Are you really sure we are past bickering?originally posted by VLM:
For anyone who doesn't know, all those (Jumilla or whatever hot-ass weird Spanish place) wines are like that.
Look for Casa Castillo Pie Franco 2006, Ad Gaude 2005 Heretat de Cesilia, Mira salinas 2005, Ponce PF 2007 or a few more of those wines from that hot-ass weird place... Taste a couple of them, and please report back.
You're the only one who rises to the bait even more predictably than I do.
But seriously, hot-ass Spain is full of these labels that are smacked on god knows what bulk juice. When I see the shelf talkers in stores, I laugh my ass off. It has to piss you off too because it makes a mockery of what you are trying to promote.
Surely the wines you mention are the exception.
BTW, do you really think I'd like them or do you think they are good examples of the potential?
Joel Stewart
Joel Stewart
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by VS:
Are you really sure we are past bickering?originally posted by VLM:
For anyone who doesn't know, all those (Jumilla or whatever hot-ass weird Spanish place) wines are like that.
Look for Casa Castillo Pie Franco 2006, Ad Gaude 2005 Heretat de Cesilia, Mira salinas 2005, Ponce PF 2007 or a few more of those wines from that hot-ass weird place... Taste a couple of them, and please report back.
You're the only one who rises to the bait even more predictably than I do.
But seriously, hot-ass Spain is full of these labels that are smacked on god knows what bulk juice. When I see the shelf talkers in stores, I laugh my ass off. It has to piss you off too because it makes a mockery of what you are trying to promote.
Surely the wines you mention are the exception.
BTW, do you really think I'd like them or do you think they are good examples of the potential?
i think the rule of thumb for me is, if it's from Jumilla and it's reviewed by the big boys...chances are it's baked, plummy, jammy, and alcoholic with variable levels of extraction and opacity being the main differences between the wines. tanzer's review of the castano wine you mention VS, for example includes the words "slightly port-like"...that alone is a turn off for me. been there, done that.
if there are other styles out there from that region which present other profiles, i'd be curious to know about them, but i suspect that (as VLM says) they are exceptions to the rule.
Even my tongue-in-cheek comments are taken by VLM as taking the bait. Oh well.
Let's see now. Slightly seriously...
We are talking about the birthplace of monastrell, rechristened mourvdre or mataro or whatnot in other parts of the world where they now consider it a great grape variety. Also, slightly to the north, the birthplace of bobal, a much less well-known and less distinguished variety with a little rusticity and spiky tannins but good fruit, good freshness and good aging potential.
We are talking about a place that's 820 miles south of Chinon and 700 miles south of Condrieu - and just 250 miles north of Oran, Algeria. Harsh terroir - 8 to 10 inches of rain a year, very poor soils, temperatures in the 90s/100s throughout July and August, the most sunshine hours per year just about anywhere in the world. But the altitude (vineyards up to 3,000 feet) and the low nighttime temperatures (today, at 7 AM, it was 51 F in Jumilla, 45 F in the higher vineyards - and it will reach 98), and indeed those poor, brown 'graves' soils on a solid limestone base provide some interesting viticultural conditions. That's why wine has been made here since the Antiquity and, they say, revered in classic Rome.
Obviously, this is an entirely different viticultural world, one that will naturally produce richer, more powerful, more concentrated red wines with no need for spoofulation. Concentrating devices such as reverse osmosis gear are unknown in local wineries. This style is what it is - the product of the viticultural environment. It's useless to even pop one bottle from this neck of the woods (BTW - not that there are that many woods around...) if one isn't interested in anything that isn't light, a little tart, reflecting the misty, rainy days of summer on the Loire (where it's been raining most of this July - fortunately improving now, it seems) or in the high valleys of the Jura. This is wine from the south. We can't help it. It's not as light and refined. It's broader, palate-coating, tasty and rather extroverted.
Of course, there's been a local form of spoofulation recently under the guise of a clumsy use of nouveau-riche, new French oak barrels. (New oak, contrary to some misconceptions, is a great winemaking tool, very useful because of its unique micro-oxygenation capability in making truly fine, long-lived red wines from tannic grape varieties, in which it shouldn't feature prominently at all after a few years, if used competently - but that's another subject and I'll leave it at that.) Also some overripeness, but rarely: it's almost impossible to have overripe monastrell because this is a very late-maturing variety. (In Jumilla, they usually start harvesting at least two weeks later than in the northerly Cte Rtie. They often have to finish their harvest in a hurry because those rare, and precious, late October rains hit them hard.)
For anyone with enough of an open mind and an interest in good wine - in all types of good wine - the potential is intriguing. With huge, bulk wine-producing, industrial wineries dominating the region until the 1990s, there wasn't much else than 'potential' to expect... But I believe we've just moved from the 'potential' to the 'reality' phase, as after five years or so all competent growers amid the new generation of small producers learn to correct mistakes and refine their art. It's interesting, for instance, to see Jos Mara Vicente, at Casa Castillo, now using exclusively large-sized barrels (300 to 500 l), or Sbastien Boudon, at Heretat de Cesilia, working with varietal blends to enhance complexity.
As avoiding dilution and tartness is a big concern for growers in the cold north, preserving as much elegance as possible in those powerful wines is the main concern in southeastern Spain. Some are getting there.
Are these wines 'porty', as Joel contends? He's entitled to his opinion, of course, even though I think he's wrong ("chances are it's baked, plummy, jammy, and alcoholic with variable levels of extraction and opacity being the main differences between the wines"). However, Joel, what I find disingenuous from you is misquoting Josh Raynolds' notes in Steve Tanzer's International Wine Cellar! Here are his real tasting notes on the 2005 Mira Salinas, in the current issue of IWC:
2005 Bodegas Sierra Salinas Casa Mira Alicante
Glass-staining ruby color. Ripe cherry and blackberry aromas are complemented by smoked meat, anise and baking spices. Broad and concentrated, with sweet red and dark berry flavors, a velvety texture and slow-building tannins. Becomes spicier on the finish, which delivers a whiplash of fresh cherry.
Not exactly 'porty'... Then again - what's 'porty'? Over-alcoholic? The better wines from southeastern Spain have between 14 and 15 alcohol, but their structure and stuffing are such that they usually carry it well and are far less 'capiteux', as the French say, or give much less of a burning impression, than, say, most 14 Chteauneuf-du-Pape wines.
Is 'porty' akin to showing that the grapes grew under an unyielding sun, as indeed Port wine grapes do? Well, that's an almost inevitable feature, of course. It happens to most Duero/Douro wines in Spain and Portugal too. Constant Bourquin, the Swiss wine writer who founded the International Wine Academy, exclaimed when he first tasted Vega Sicilia some 50 years ago: "Mais c'est du porto sec!". Yet, these 'dry Ports' are also, at their best, capable of showing terroir, complexity and a bit of elegance. Not as much as a Bourgueil, possibly, but then each wine has its own virtues.
Let's see now. Slightly seriously...
We are talking about the birthplace of monastrell, rechristened mourvdre or mataro or whatnot in other parts of the world where they now consider it a great grape variety. Also, slightly to the north, the birthplace of bobal, a much less well-known and less distinguished variety with a little rusticity and spiky tannins but good fruit, good freshness and good aging potential.
We are talking about a place that's 820 miles south of Chinon and 700 miles south of Condrieu - and just 250 miles north of Oran, Algeria. Harsh terroir - 8 to 10 inches of rain a year, very poor soils, temperatures in the 90s/100s throughout July and August, the most sunshine hours per year just about anywhere in the world. But the altitude (vineyards up to 3,000 feet) and the low nighttime temperatures (today, at 7 AM, it was 51 F in Jumilla, 45 F in the higher vineyards - and it will reach 98), and indeed those poor, brown 'graves' soils on a solid limestone base provide some interesting viticultural conditions. That's why wine has been made here since the Antiquity and, they say, revered in classic Rome.
Obviously, this is an entirely different viticultural world, one that will naturally produce richer, more powerful, more concentrated red wines with no need for spoofulation. Concentrating devices such as reverse osmosis gear are unknown in local wineries. This style is what it is - the product of the viticultural environment. It's useless to even pop one bottle from this neck of the woods (BTW - not that there are that many woods around...) if one isn't interested in anything that isn't light, a little tart, reflecting the misty, rainy days of summer on the Loire (where it's been raining most of this July - fortunately improving now, it seems) or in the high valleys of the Jura. This is wine from the south. We can't help it. It's not as light and refined. It's broader, palate-coating, tasty and rather extroverted.
Of course, there's been a local form of spoofulation recently under the guise of a clumsy use of nouveau-riche, new French oak barrels. (New oak, contrary to some misconceptions, is a great winemaking tool, very useful because of its unique micro-oxygenation capability in making truly fine, long-lived red wines from tannic grape varieties, in which it shouldn't feature prominently at all after a few years, if used competently - but that's another subject and I'll leave it at that.) Also some overripeness, but rarely: it's almost impossible to have overripe monastrell because this is a very late-maturing variety. (In Jumilla, they usually start harvesting at least two weeks later than in the northerly Cte Rtie. They often have to finish their harvest in a hurry because those rare, and precious, late October rains hit them hard.)
For anyone with enough of an open mind and an interest in good wine - in all types of good wine - the potential is intriguing. With huge, bulk wine-producing, industrial wineries dominating the region until the 1990s, there wasn't much else than 'potential' to expect... But I believe we've just moved from the 'potential' to the 'reality' phase, as after five years or so all competent growers amid the new generation of small producers learn to correct mistakes and refine their art. It's interesting, for instance, to see Jos Mara Vicente, at Casa Castillo, now using exclusively large-sized barrels (300 to 500 l), or Sbastien Boudon, at Heretat de Cesilia, working with varietal blends to enhance complexity.
As avoiding dilution and tartness is a big concern for growers in the cold north, preserving as much elegance as possible in those powerful wines is the main concern in southeastern Spain. Some are getting there.
Are these wines 'porty', as Joel contends? He's entitled to his opinion, of course, even though I think he's wrong ("chances are it's baked, plummy, jammy, and alcoholic with variable levels of extraction and opacity being the main differences between the wines"). However, Joel, what I find disingenuous from you is misquoting Josh Raynolds' notes in Steve Tanzer's International Wine Cellar! Here are his real tasting notes on the 2005 Mira Salinas, in the current issue of IWC:
2005 Bodegas Sierra Salinas Casa Mira Alicante
Glass-staining ruby color. Ripe cherry and blackberry aromas are complemented by smoked meat, anise and baking spices. Broad and concentrated, with sweet red and dark berry flavors, a velvety texture and slow-building tannins. Becomes spicier on the finish, which delivers a whiplash of fresh cherry.
Not exactly 'porty'... Then again - what's 'porty'? Over-alcoholic? The better wines from southeastern Spain have between 14 and 15 alcohol, but their structure and stuffing are such that they usually carry it well and are far less 'capiteux', as the French say, or give much less of a burning impression, than, say, most 14 Chteauneuf-du-Pape wines.
Is 'porty' akin to showing that the grapes grew under an unyielding sun, as indeed Port wine grapes do? Well, that's an almost inevitable feature, of course. It happens to most Duero/Douro wines in Spain and Portugal too. Constant Bourquin, the Swiss wine writer who founded the International Wine Academy, exclaimed when he first tasted Vega Sicilia some 50 years ago: "Mais c'est du porto sec!". Yet, these 'dry Ports' are also, at their best, capable of showing terroir, complexity and a bit of elegance. Not as much as a Bourgueil, possibly, but then each wine has its own virtues.
Joel Stewart
Joel Stewart
VS, your report sheds more light on an area I am slightly familiar with. I was careful to qualify my opinion as I did above by stating it was "my own rule of thumb". I've had several of those positively scored wines and have seen a pattern across the board that I did not like, and described my impressions of what I experienced.
I don't know about disingenuity, but here's the review I came across and took it at face value: it is attributed to Tanzer. I did mention that reading it being "slightly port-like" it was a turn off for me (and wasn't speaking for the rest of the world) but mainly I was qualifying my disdain for being burned in the past by "good reviews" of wines I found as earlier described. (That wine is listed as being at 15.9 %, fwiw...and I would probably steer clear of it.) As I occasionally drink Southern Rhone wines and can appreciate the mourvedre grape, I imagine there are some Jumilla wines I could actually enjoy....just not the ones I took care to qualify in my original post.
I don't know about disingenuity, but here's the review I came across and took it at face value: it is attributed to Tanzer. I did mention that reading it being "slightly port-like" it was a turn off for me (and wasn't speaking for the rest of the world) but mainly I was qualifying my disdain for being burned in the past by "good reviews" of wines I found as earlier described. (That wine is listed as being at 15.9 %, fwiw...and I would probably steer clear of it.) As I occasionally drink Southern Rhone wines and can appreciate the mourvedre grape, I imagine there are some Jumilla wines I could actually enjoy....just not the ones I took care to qualify in my original post.
Look for Casa Castillo Pie Franco 2006, Ad Gaude 2005 Heretat de Cesilia, Mira salinas 2005, Ponce PF 2007 or a few more of those wines from that hot-ass weird place... Taste a couple of them, and please report back.
Victor,
I haven't had the 2006 Casa Castillo Pie Franco, but I exchanged some late 90's Pie Franco with some Cte Rotie from the same vintages, and frankly I should have kept my CR. The wines were not porty, but horribly oaky and totally souless to my taste. After 2 or 3 attempts I gave the remaining bottles to friends who drink Clos St Jean Deus ex Machina and recent Pavie (but think that Mollydooker Carnival of Love is a bit over the top, though).
Eric
Sorry to use this term, 'disingenuity', Joel, but surely you are a veteran taster and you know that giving tasting notes for one vintage and applying them to a different vintage is at least meaningless and at worst misleading. I mentioned Mira Salinas 2005 and you come back with Mira Salinas 2003! I'm sure you remember the 2003 vintage throughout Europe hottest year since temperature records exist? How many 'porty' wines came out of Europe in 2003? Were they typical of what wineries produced any other year? Come on!originally posted by Joel Stewart:
I don't know about disingenuity, but here's the review I came across and took it at face value: it is attributed to Tanzer. I did mention that reading it being "slightly port-like" it was a turn off for me.
Hi, ric! Sorry to see that, when we have so few chances to communicate, now that we get one I must disagree with you pretty thoroughly in this case! And as it turns out, I believe you only have to drive a few miles to Lyon to check out the facts for yourself...I haven't had the 2006 Casa Castillo Pie Franco, but I exchanged some late 90's Pie Franco with some Cte Rotie from the same vintages, and frankly I should have kept my CR. The wines were not porty, but horribly oaky and totally souless to my taste. After 2 or 3 attempts I gave the remaining bottles to friends who drink Clos St Jean Deus ex Machina and recent Pavie (but think that Mollydooker Carnival of Love is a bit over the top, though).
The inaugural vintage of Casa Castillo Pie Franco a wine made from an ungrafted monastrell vineyard planted in 1942 was 1998. Jos Mara Vicente, then a fledgling young winemaker, made all the beginner's mistakes in the world like a total maceration time of 50 days! He cringes today at the thought.
This is not an idle fact, and indeed mirrors just how many enthusiastic but inexperienced growers in then-forgotten Spanish regions were only feeling their way through the vineyards and the cellars back then, learning the ropes (just as you and I were...). This is an important fact a decade has gone by. This is why in my post above I specified: "I believe we've just moved from the 'potential' to the 'reality' phase, as after five years or so all competent growers amid the new generation of small producers learn to correct mistakes and refine their art. It's interesting, for instance, to see Jos Mara Vicente, at Casa Castillo, now using exclusively large-sized barrels (300 to 500 l)..."
Well, this is an excellent example: wine that survives winemaking mistakes and grows in the bottle for more than a decade to become outstanding that's usually the mark of fine terroir and an inkling of greatness, isn't it? And I was obviously thinking of Jos Mara's experience when I wrote this...
The next-to-last time I tasted Casa Castillo Pie Franco 1998 (a small-production wine that was not exported to the US until recently, BTW it might be now that they have changed importers) was in Lyon last January (we have later had a Casa Castillo vertical, which was precisely prompted by the Lyon events).
As we do whenever possible, some Spanish fans of the Rhne were there for the 'march' at Ampuis and, as I reported right here on Feb. 2, to visit some producers (this time, Chave, Rostaing, Jamet and Gripa) "to learn from those who really know the art of growing syrah, which two of us, Jos Mara Vicente of Casa Castillo and myself, very modestly try to do too. We met our friend Lus Seabra, the Niepoort winemaker (for dry wines), and he got us a last-minute invite to a food-and-wine party at Georges Five, the new wine bar launched by Georges Dos Santos, a small dynamo of a French-Portuguese wine maniac, next door to his Antic Wine shop in Lyon, one of the most amazing of its kind in the world, with a hard-to-believe array of old vintages. Antic Wine is Niepoort's unofficial embassy in France."
The other two were Rhne lovers Luis Gutirrez and Ignacio Villalgordo (who have since won the Spanish Tasting Championship for Pairs, an original event we have here). One of them spotted, at Antic Wine, a few bottles of '98 Pie Franco and convinced Jos Mara (who was wary, knowing the wine's history) to bring one to the dinner, which turned out to be a six-hour extravaganza. And despite the fact it didn't get the long period in a decanter that 10 year-old mourvdre usually needs, the balance, depth, complexity and minerality of the wine completely wowed the group, which included sommelier Andreas Larsson and the whole new team running Jaboulet in the Jean-Jacques Frey rgime...
(In Spanish, Luis' detailed report on the event: http://elmundovino.elmundo.es/elmun...cion=14&vs_fecha=200902&vs_noticia=1234384165.)
I would guess Dos Santos should still have some bottles left (this is probably not the best known wine in France...), and they're only something like 24 euros, so don't take my word for it... :-)
Joel Stewart
Joel Stewart
originally posted by VS:
Sorry to use this term, 'disingenuity', Joel, but surely you are a veteran taster and you know that giving tasting notes for one vintage and applying them to a different vintage is at least meaningless and at worst misleading. I mentioned Mira Salinas 2005 and you come back with Mira Salinas 2003! I'm sure you remember the 2003 vintage throughout Europe hottest year since temperature records exist? How many 'porty' wines came out of Europe in 2003? Were they typical of what wineries produced any other year? Come on!originally posted by Joel Stewart:
I don't know about disingenuity, but here's the review I came across and took it at face value: it is attributed to Tanzer. I did mention that reading it being "slightly port-like" it was a turn off for me.
oops. i missed that. sorry.
out of curiosity, what was the abv on the '05?
15.0%. About par for the course in our region for (let's don't forget) a very warm vintage like 2005 - but a normal warm vintage, not 2003!
BTW, the Sierra Salinas web site has some very good pics that give an excellent idea of the vineyard landscape and the old monastrell vines in the Jumilla/Yecla/Alicante triangle.
BTW, the Sierra Salinas web site has some very good pics that give an excellent idea of the vineyard landscape and the old monastrell vines in the Jumilla/Yecla/Alicante triangle.
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www.sierrasalinas.com