Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
You mean the 600 wines-a-day taster in yesterday's Times?
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- Thread starter Levi Dalton
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Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
And your CA IOUs.
Levi Dalton
Levi Dalton
Lou,
No sarcasm was involved. Really.
But I do think that if you are going to call bullshit that you should at least, you know, make a half-assed effort to back that call up. And I'm disappointed that you didn't.
It's cool.
Just I won't pay much mind the next time you shout out that no one here knows what they are talking about.
Haven't seen much CA cab in nyc restaurants for awhile. Guess I don't hang out in steakhouses, tourist holes, or off-shoot B cities. Guess I don't know what's going on.
No sarcasm was involved. Really.
But I do think that if you are going to call bullshit that you should at least, you know, make a half-assed effort to back that call up. And I'm disappointed that you didn't.
It's cool.
Just I won't pay much mind the next time you shout out that no one here knows what they are talking about.
Haven't seen much CA cab in nyc restaurants for awhile. Guess I don't hang out in steakhouses, tourist holes, or off-shoot B cities. Guess I don't know what's going on.
Robert Dentice
Robert Dentice
Levi - Great thought provoking post (as always!) and a topic that I feel passionately about as I think there is some great wine coming out of California. I also sense a major shift in style occurring.
As proof I will cite several examples:
Copain and Wind Gap both winemakers had very successful brands that garnered high scores (I personally could care less about scores but the reality is that it helps sell California wine). Both winemakers have made a conscious decision to change their winemaking styles so they can make wines that in their words they want to drink and in my words rather than wines to please the critics.
Vineyard Locations Wine producers are exploring and learning more about where to plant vineyards. Kevin Harvey of Rhys did a significant amount of research prior to selecting the Santa Cruz Mountain area as did Bradley Brown of Big Basin.
Winemaking Winemaking is far more adventurous and many winemakers are breaking out of the typical big extracted rip Napa Cab style see Scholium Project and National Process Alliance.
Assistant Winemakers I have seen many assistant winemakers who start their own labels and choose to make more balanced lower alcohol wines AND they can because they dont need to rely on critical acclaim to sell their small production wines.
My fear is that many Sommeliers have completely written-off California because of both style and price.
I hope the younger Sommeliers will give California a chance it is refreshing to see a whole page of Scholium Project wines featured at Jacks Luxury Oyster Bar and it is interesting to note that those were put on the list by a young guy who is just getting started.
Levi based on quick scan of your list it looks like you have approximately five U.S. wines on your list. You have one of the most innovative and exciting lists in NYC I challenge you to support some of the winemakers who are making good wine in California Clos Saron, Copain, Cowen Cellars, Dashe Cellars, Donkey and Goat, Hirsch, Inman, NPA, Peay, Rhys, Scholium Project, Wind Gap and also some of the more established producers that still make good wine like Edmunds St. John, Mayacamas and Renaissance (I am sure I left out many other worthy producers and would love to hear other suggestions).
Putting more California wines on your list is probably more radical than adding more Orange wines (which as you know I love)! It reminds me of what I think of every time I see someone covered from head to toe in tattoos and piercings That is to say that today it is actually more radical and contrarian to not have tattoos than to have them especially in my hood the East Village
As proof I will cite several examples:
Copain and Wind Gap both winemakers had very successful brands that garnered high scores (I personally could care less about scores but the reality is that it helps sell California wine). Both winemakers have made a conscious decision to change their winemaking styles so they can make wines that in their words they want to drink and in my words rather than wines to please the critics.
Vineyard Locations Wine producers are exploring and learning more about where to plant vineyards. Kevin Harvey of Rhys did a significant amount of research prior to selecting the Santa Cruz Mountain area as did Bradley Brown of Big Basin.
Winemaking Winemaking is far more adventurous and many winemakers are breaking out of the typical big extracted rip Napa Cab style see Scholium Project and National Process Alliance.
Assistant Winemakers I have seen many assistant winemakers who start their own labels and choose to make more balanced lower alcohol wines AND they can because they dont need to rely on critical acclaim to sell their small production wines.
My fear is that many Sommeliers have completely written-off California because of both style and price.
I hope the younger Sommeliers will give California a chance it is refreshing to see a whole page of Scholium Project wines featured at Jacks Luxury Oyster Bar and it is interesting to note that those were put on the list by a young guy who is just getting started.
Levi based on quick scan of your list it looks like you have approximately five U.S. wines on your list. You have one of the most innovative and exciting lists in NYC I challenge you to support some of the winemakers who are making good wine in California Clos Saron, Copain, Cowen Cellars, Dashe Cellars, Donkey and Goat, Hirsch, Inman, NPA, Peay, Rhys, Scholium Project, Wind Gap and also some of the more established producers that still make good wine like Edmunds St. John, Mayacamas and Renaissance (I am sure I left out many other worthy producers and would love to hear other suggestions).
Putting more California wines on your list is probably more radical than adding more Orange wines (which as you know I love)! It reminds me of what I think of every time I see someone covered from head to toe in tattoos and piercings That is to say that today it is actually more radical and contrarian to not have tattoos than to have them especially in my hood the East Village
I used to talk about this all the time, but the Great Minds™ of California wine all told me that it couldn't and wouldn't be done. I still don't think that's right -- I think someone who owns a crapload of vineyards and almost everything else they need from grape to bottle, like Gallo, could do it if they had a mind to (they don't, obviously) -- so I stopped wishing for it and went back to < $20 wines from Europe and elsewhere.
Most of which are now > $20.
Most of which are now > $20.
Robert Dentice
Robert Dentice
I agree with you on price. I don't think we will ever see reasonably priced wines coming out of areas like Napa. However, I do have hope for other regions. The Scholium Project Naucratis (Verdelho) from Lodi is retailing for $17 and the Dashe L'Enfant Terrible is around $25. I also think the current economic climate with grape prices falling and demand for lower priced wines increasing might help force change.
Eden Mylunsch
Eden Mylunsch
I view the CA wine scene as kind of like Elvis Presley albums. Lots of great stuff in the early days- even the songs that weren't hits were pretty good, and they definitely reflected Elvis' influences and upbringing (his terroir, as it were). Then that Parker guy (Col. Tom, not Robt Jr.) came along and it became all about reinforcing the brand, which by that time had been redirected into a woefully underutilized movie career. There were still some gems nestled in and among the pap & palaver, but it just became so tedious to wade through that all but the obsessed or uninitiated fell by the wayside (As great a track as "Burning Love" is, you were still compelled to sit through the rest of the "Burning Love & Hits from His Movies)(great explanation of the phenomenon here).
There are still CA wines that I enjoy and buy when I haven't blown my wad by vulturing closeout deals on unpronounceable Natural Winez at internet auction sites or on stray bottles from the Loire. I'd agree with many of the suggestions Mr. Dentice made above, adding Smith-Madrone, Sky, and Ritchie Creek (Napa) to them, along with Davis Family Vineyards, Baker Lane, Failla, and Radio Coteau (Sonoma); Navarro (Mendocino); Ambyth Estate (bio) and Tablas Creek (Paso Robles); Qupe, Brander (Santa Barbara). Kalin is in a world all unto itself, and I buy it with relish (catsup too, when appropriatAll of these producers make wines that are interesting. Whether there are old world analogues with better pricing, backstories, or track records is another subject.
-Eden (preferring to drink sans idologie)
There are still CA wines that I enjoy and buy when I haven't blown my wad by vulturing closeout deals on unpronounceable Natural Winez at internet auction sites or on stray bottles from the Loire. I'd agree with many of the suggestions Mr. Dentice made above, adding Smith-Madrone, Sky, and Ritchie Creek (Napa) to them, along with Davis Family Vineyards, Baker Lane, Failla, and Radio Coteau (Sonoma); Navarro (Mendocino); Ambyth Estate (bio) and Tablas Creek (Paso Robles); Qupe, Brander (Santa Barbara). Kalin is in a world all unto itself, and I buy it with relish (catsup too, when appropriatAll of these producers make wines that are interesting. Whether there are old world analogues with better pricing, backstories, or track records is another subject.
-Eden (preferring to drink sans idologie)
Robert Dentice
Robert Dentice
Yes...some, maybe most, of the wines could clearly be called extracted.
Since inception Abe has made well over 50 different wines with 10+ different grapes and some are skin fermented, some have no SO2 and some have minimal SO2, some have high alcohol and some have lower alchohol. All are unique.
To me most of the Napa Cabs all taste very similiar and follow similiar winemaking protocols and I used Scholium Project as an example of a producer that does not attempt to mimic what everyone else is doing.
Haven't we had this discussion several times in recent memory? I am heartened to hear that winemaking is changing in CA and I look forward to seeing more and more wines from there that I like. Yes, the issue of pricing is one that, alas, won't go away and is inherent to the differences in land ownership between Old World and New. And, of course, the other inherent difference is that of degree-days between the two areas. How are Disorderists who groove on wines from the Loire and the Jura to find happiness with wines made in a region that gets 50% more sunshine? Yes, maybe vineyard practices and careful site selection can reduce that difference, but is it reasonable to expect that CA wines will ever retain the acidity of their Old World counterparts without a little "help"?
Just askin'
Mark Lipton
Just askin'
Mark Lipton
Just how much Pinot Noir are you drinking coming out of southern Italy? Or, Cabernet Savignon, Cabernet Franc, Merlot, even Chardonay for that mater?
365 days of sunshine and as much irrigation as needed, California is a vurtual greenhouse. The problem with California is they're growing the wrong grapes, just because they can. And for economic reasons they will continue to do so.
Mark Lipton is one to something. I am no expert on California wines, despite my proximity, but I've long felt that the excesses of the wines correlates with the fertility of the growing regions. In CA one can get a grape fully ripe, as ripe as anyone would want (an then some.) To my palate, the better wines come from marginal growing regions with rocky soils, difficult terrains, cool breezy nights and etc. California is the land of agricultural plenty, but good wines seem to come from sites no one (from the Romans on) were really interested in farming.
At least that is my pet theory which like most pet theories ignores all counter-examples.
At least that is my pet theory which like most pet theories ignores all counter-examples.
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
But there was a fair number of exceptional wines coming from CA in the 1960s and 1970s. Mostly from people who were not trained at Davis.
Jay Miller
Jay Miller
Kevin Harvey is convinced that soil vigor is one of the most important factors in avoiding what most of us would refer to as overripeness and/or high alchohol (and is choosing vineyards accordingly). He has some interesting observations in this thread (which contains some less interesting back and forths on whether high alcohol is good bad or depends)
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dat.erobertparker.com
There's a reason Rhys is my only mailing list...
Arjun Mendiratta
Arjun Mendiratta
Something that has always perplexed me.
Brad Widelock
Brad Widelock
I am a middle school math teacher and my only relationship to the wine business is as a consumer. I realize that by posting this I have opened myself up to getting my ass handed to me by those with far more knowledge.
Living in Marin County California, I have observed that, regardless of the economy, there is always a market for luxury goods. It doesn't matter if it's overpriced wine or shoes, people still buy them. I am sure that some consumers of $250 Shafer wines truly enjoy and appreciate them. However, I suspect that the majority of those consumers buy the wine because they think they should. These consumers have bought into the idea that it's not possible to buy a quality wine for $20. Appreciating certain wines, like the music of Thelonious Monk and the writing of Flannery O' Connor, may take some work on the part of the consumer. You might have to come to them. They wont necessarily come to you. I think there are many people out there who would rather avoid the work. Instead they pay a lot of money for a product that they have been told is the "best" instead of finding out for themselves. When I look at the wine list at RN74 and similar restaurants and see how much wine they sell I wonder are there really that many people who appreciate these wines or are they just buying them because they can. When I eat in a restaurant and see people drinking a wine that should age 10 years before it is really ready to drink, I am convinced that they don't really appreciate the wine. There really are too many people out there who won't order the less expensive bottles of wine in a restaurant because they are afraid that doing so will make them look foolish. Instead they pay way too much for a wine that they probably won't appreciate and really isnt ready to drink. This is what happens when our society no longer values the humanities. We stop thinking and questioning the world around us.
Clearly the economics of producing wine plays a serious part in their pricing. However, there are excellent examples of quality California wines for less than $50.00, some less than $25.00. I offer the wines of Steve Edmonds as one example. As to California cabernet, I would love to see a Smith-Madrone on a NYC restaurant wine list. This wine retails for less than $50.00. I dont think that its a lost generation but one that is in hiding, practicing their craft, biding their time. These producers shall rise again.
Living in Marin County California, I have observed that, regardless of the economy, there is always a market for luxury goods. It doesn't matter if it's overpriced wine or shoes, people still buy them. I am sure that some consumers of $250 Shafer wines truly enjoy and appreciate them. However, I suspect that the majority of those consumers buy the wine because they think they should. These consumers have bought into the idea that it's not possible to buy a quality wine for $20. Appreciating certain wines, like the music of Thelonious Monk and the writing of Flannery O' Connor, may take some work on the part of the consumer. You might have to come to them. They wont necessarily come to you. I think there are many people out there who would rather avoid the work. Instead they pay a lot of money for a product that they have been told is the "best" instead of finding out for themselves. When I look at the wine list at RN74 and similar restaurants and see how much wine they sell I wonder are there really that many people who appreciate these wines or are they just buying them because they can. When I eat in a restaurant and see people drinking a wine that should age 10 years before it is really ready to drink, I am convinced that they don't really appreciate the wine. There really are too many people out there who won't order the less expensive bottles of wine in a restaurant because they are afraid that doing so will make them look foolish. Instead they pay way too much for a wine that they probably won't appreciate and really isnt ready to drink. This is what happens when our society no longer values the humanities. We stop thinking and questioning the world around us.
Clearly the economics of producing wine plays a serious part in their pricing. However, there are excellent examples of quality California wines for less than $50.00, some less than $25.00. I offer the wines of Steve Edmonds as one example. As to California cabernet, I would love to see a Smith-Madrone on a NYC restaurant wine list. This wine retails for less than $50.00. I dont think that its a lost generation but one that is in hiding, practicing their craft, biding their time. These producers shall rise again.
Florida Jim
Florida Jim
Brad,
While I would not agree that someone who drinks a wine too young doesn't appreciate it (I have done that too often), I do think that cache sells certain bottles. As do reviews and advertising, hence their continued use.
I am, however, at much more a loss to decipher a wine consumer's motivations. Every conceivable reason, from pretty labels to good juice to knowing the people who make the wine, seems to turn up.
But I do like your comment about having to work for it; the consumer that believes a semester or two of classes or a subscription to the latest wine rag will make them experienced doesn't understand the definition of the word. Patience and tasting, reading and exploring; efforts that can take a lifetime, are a difficult path to set for one's self.
That they are the only path to experience appears to be but an after-thought.
Best, Jim
While I would not agree that someone who drinks a wine too young doesn't appreciate it (I have done that too often), I do think that cache sells certain bottles. As do reviews and advertising, hence their continued use.
I am, however, at much more a loss to decipher a wine consumer's motivations. Every conceivable reason, from pretty labels to good juice to knowing the people who make the wine, seems to turn up.
But I do like your comment about having to work for it; the consumer that believes a semester or two of classes or a subscription to the latest wine rag will make them experienced doesn't understand the definition of the word. Patience and tasting, reading and exploring; efforts that can take a lifetime, are a difficult path to set for one's self.
That they are the only path to experience appears to be but an after-thought.
Best, Jim
Hank Beckmeyer
Hank Beckmeyer
Mark - Really? You can't enjoy a well made Californian wine just because of 50% more sunshine? I can - and I can also enjoy a wine from the Jura or the Loire, too. I enjoy them for what they are, and I enjoy them because they are different.
Good wine is good wine, no matter where its grown.
Good work in the vineyard makes that "little help" unnecessary, assuming you haven't planted gamay in Lodi, for instance.