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originally posted by Eden Mylunsch:
originally posted by MLipton:
-- but what then are the right grapes for Napa or Paso? Mourvedre? Carignan? Grenache? Nero d'Avola? Aglianico?

Mark Lipton
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Since you asked, in the Napa Valley (excluding the Carneros District), I'd vote for Cabernet Sauvignon. You have my permission to graft over everything else, unless of course you'd like to retain some Merlot and Cabernet Franc so as to continue producing Bordeaux-style blends.

I'm more forgiving when it comes to setting up the approved-variety parameters in the Paso Robles AVA. Cabernet Sauvignon has proven to be very well-suited to the area, as have most of the Rhne varieties (both white and red). Simple economic sense precludes the use of Syrah, but Mourvedre and Grenache do just fine there, and I'm very encouraged with the quality of the Italian varieties coming out of the area. I haven't seen much Nero d'Avola (yet), but Luna Matta Vineyard is growing some excellent Aglianico and Nebbiolo. Neither will be immediately mistaken for their Italianate counterparts but they're credible warmest-climate grapes that will have their potential unveiled as soon as more winemakers figure out how to make the best of a good thing.

-Eden (unless they screw it up)
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In the first years of ESJ, in my search for old plantings of Mourvedre, I learned, to my chagrin, that there had, indeed, been a lot of old plantings of it, many in the hills around Napa Valley, that were taken out, in the rush, circa late '70s and early '80s, to accommodate new plantings of Cabernet Sauvignon. It seemed like every year I would hear two or three more stories in which someone discovered that one more patch of Mourvedre had been ripped untimely from the ground. No doubt there are places where Cabernet might make better wine than Mourvedre, but the reverse is also true. I think Aglianico, and, perhaps, Sagrantino might be good choices for a lot of Napa. A little Cabernet goes a long way.
 
originally posted by Steve Edmunds:

In the first years of ESJ, in my search for old plantings of Mourvedre, I learned, to my chagrin, that there had, indeed, been a lot of old plantings of it, many in the hills around Napa Valley, that were taken out, in the rush, circa late '70s and early '80s, to accommodate new plantings of Cabernet Sauvignon. It seemed like every year I would hear two or three more stories in which someone discovered that one more patch of Mourvedre had been ripped untimely from the ground. No doubt there are places where Cabernet might make better wine than Mourvedre, but the reverse is also true. I think Aglianico, and, perhaps, Sagrantino might be good choices for a lot of Napa. A little Cabernet goes a long way.
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I've heard the same story about the Sonoma barbera that Ridge used to make--ripped out for merlot. At least in that case the karmic justice was swift.
 
originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
No doubt there are places where Cabernet might make better wine than Mourvedre, but the reverse is also true. I think Aglianico, and, perhaps, Sagrantino might be good choices for a lot of Napa.
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Finally, a voice of reason.
 
originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
originally posted by Eden Mylunsch:
originally posted by MLipton:
-- but what then are the right grapes for Napa or Paso? Mourvedre? Carignan? Grenache? Nero d'Avola? Aglianico?

Mark Lipton[/quote
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In the first years of ESJ, in my search for old plantings of Mourvedre, I learned, to my chagrin, that there had, indeed, been a lot of old plantings of it, many in the hills around Napa Valley, that were taken out, in the rush, circa late '70s and early '80s, to accommodate new plantings of Cabernet Sauvignon. It seemed like every year I would hear two or three more stories in which someone discovered that one more patch of Mourvedre had been ripped untimely from the ground. No doubt there are places where Cabernet might make better wine than Mourvedre, but the reverse is also true. I think Aglianico, and, perhaps, Sagrantino might be good choices for a lot of Napa. A little Cabernet goes a long way.
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You old Rhone hound, how the hell are you going to have Mouvedre and Sagrantino economically viable considering the price of land in Napa? Old saw, "how to have a little money in Napa"? Start with a large fortune and plant Aglianico, Chenin Blanc, Mourvedre, etc, you'll end up with no fucking fortune fast.
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originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
Fuckin Merlot!
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One of the best surprises I've had in the last 5 years out of CA was a varietal merlot from Carhartt in Santa Maria.
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Funny, when you go to the Carhartt site (and not the clothing Carhartts, but the wine Carhartts) and then look up the Alamo Pintado Rd address of Carhartt, it comes up as being the location of Caparone Winery, which as we all know is in Paso Robles and is widely known for their work with wine made from Italian grape varieties and is also one of FL Jim's favorite under-the-radar wineries.

Check it out.

-Eden (things can get a little strange sometimes when venturing along the backroads in wooden shoe 'n' windmill territory)
 
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Hank Beckmeyer:
originally posted by MLipton:
How are Disorderists who groove on wines from the Loire and the Jura to find happiness with wines made in a region that gets 50% more sunshine? Yes, maybe vineyard practices and careful site selection can reduce that difference, but is it reasonable to expect that CA wines will ever retain the acidity of their Old World counterparts without a little "help"?
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Mark - Really? You can't enjoy a well made Californian wine just because of 50% more sunshine? I can - and I can also enjoy a wine from the Jura or the Loire, too. I enjoy them for what they are, and I enjoy them because they are different.
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Please don't put words in my mouth, Hank. You have made an unwarranted assumption that I was referring to myself in that statement which, as it happens, is incorrect. That being said, I know of several participants here who, not for lack of trying, don't find many wines made in CA to their tastes.

In my case, the one grape that most bedevils me is Syrah. I have long loved the Syrah-based wines from the N Rhone, but the vast majority of CA Syrahs bore me if not outright horrify me (the same can be said for those from Australia). Yes, Steve Edmunds's wines are a grand exception, though he would probably be the first to admit that his wines aren't likely to be mistaken for Hermitage or Cornas. I have also liked some of the Syrahs from Terre Rouge and Lagier-Meredith and I have high hopes for future releases from Cowan Cellars, but those are the rare exceptions. As I said, there's no mystery here: I don't even like many Syrahs made from sunnier regions of France.

As another facet of this question, look at the problems winemakers in the Mosel are having with the warmer years they've faced in the last decade. Years like '03 and '06 were real challenges for them because of the lower acidity resulting from the warmer temperatures. Or look at Alsace's problems.

Good wine is good wine, no matter where its grown.
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What is good wine? How do you define it? Is that wine that you like, or is wine that is technically sound?

Good work in the vineyard makes that "little help" unnecessary, assuming you haven't planted gamay in Lodi, for instance.
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So can you point me to the outstanding examples of CA Melon de Bourgogne? Chenin Blanc? Riesling? I agree with your larger point -- that you have to plant the right grapes in the right places -- but what then are the right grapes for Napa or Paso? Mourvedre? Carignan? Grenache? Nero d'Avola? Aglianico?

Mark Lipton
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Sorry if my assumption was unwarranted. I was assuming that you were speaking for a group of people, not just yourself. If you do not consider yourself part of the group, my apologies.

My point is - if you don't like CA wines, then don't drink them. But don't trash them for being what they are. They will always be riper and fuller than French wine, for instance. A well made CA wine has just as much validity as a well made Italian.

I too enjoy Steve's wines, and I am glad he isn't trying to make Cornas or Hermitage. He realizes the futility of that - something that a lot of other wineries should have realized, too. Steve makes really good Californian syrah.

Good wine - ok this is a big issue, but for me it is a wine which speaks of the vintage and the land on which it was grown. No tricks of technology, no flavorings, just grapes and a winemaker who can help transform them in something interesting. It can end up being a little rough, or quirky,but if it speaks its terroir, then that's "good".
So, to that end, there may be someone growing Chenin or Riesling here that meets that criteria,but it would be a tough row to hoe, no? I'd be willing to give them a fair shake.

Matching grape variety to site is an ongoing challenge, complicated by market concerns. I think you need some slightly crazy people to plant vineyards in weird places and grow weird grapes that no one thinks can do anything good, and see what happens. Maybe prove them wrong.

Ok? Ok!
 
originally posted by Redwinger:


No problem for me, but I've never been aroused by those kind of comments.

Winger
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No arousal...just wonderment that my six words could bring up those six words in reply.

Dark, man.
 
originally posted by Lou Kessler:

Nice to have you accepted here but I wouldn't brag to anyone or put it on my resume.
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The voice of wisdom speaks.

So, Lou, you guys coming to the Natural Wine food fight a week from Sunday?
 
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