Lou Kessler
Lou Kessler
Describe, inquiring minds need to know. Sounds fascinating.
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- Thread starter Levi Dalton
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originally posted by Hank Beckmeyer:
Sorry if my assumption was unwarranted. I was assuming that you were speaking for a group of people, not just yourself. If you do not consider yourself part of the group, my apologies.
No problem. I think that, among this crowd, I sit at one end of the spectrum as I still accord about 20% of my cellar space to wines from CA. The fact that a handful of CA producers account for the lions' share of that space is neither here nor there. (BTW, kudos on your Sobon Estate work: I've had some very nice Zins from there; ditto with Shenandoah Vyds, but those were in the late '70s)
My point is - if you don't like CA wines, then don't drink them. But don't trash them for being what they are. They will always be riper and fuller than French wine, for instance. A well made CA wine has just as much validity as a well made Italian.
Agreed, in part. But there is the issue of acidity, which isn't just a matter of style but also is a large part of how well a wine pairs with food. True, one can acidify with tartrate, but there are those here who can recognize the differences in malic/tartaric/lactic balance in a wine. That's why Steve's wines are such a pleasure: they marry well with food, an essential quality for me as I overwhelmingly consume wine at meal time.
I too enjoy Steve's wines, and I am glad he isn't trying to make Cornas or Hermitage. He realizes the futility of that - something that a lot of other wineries should have realized, too. Steve makes really good Californian syrah.
Sure, but the problem I see isn't that so many wines are trying to replicate Cornas -- it's that they're trying to replicate Barossa Shiraz. And of course we know what happens when Steve makes good CA syrah: he gets labeled as "low brow Cotes du Rhone" by the world's most prominent wine critic.
Good wine - ok this is a big issue, but for me it is a wine which speaks of the vintage and the land on which it was grown. No tricks of technology, no flavorings, just grapes and a winemaker who can help transform them in something interesting. It can end up being a little rough, or quirky,but if it speaks its terroir, then that's "good".
Fair enough, though there's the slippery slope of defining terroir such that any two people can agree on it. There's also the question that's been raised here before about whether all grape varities can show their terroir. Pinot Noir and Riesling, of course; Syrah, Cab Franc, Chardonnay and Nebbiolo, too. But what about Merlot and Cab S? Do they really show the influence of terroir?
Mark Lipton
Luminaries such as Ted Lemon, Lou Amdur, Guilhaume P-F, and so on debate natural wine, "moderated" by yours truly. 2 PM on the 30th at Terroir on Folsom. The website is still remarkably uninformative about times and places, but there are a bunch of things going on next week, here.originally posted by Lou Kessler: Describe, inquiring minds need to know. Sounds fascinating.
Steve Edmunds
Steve Edmunds
come to Outside Lands "Winehaven" in GG Park; drink some ESJ, Qup, etc., etc.... hear some music, pretend you're younger than you are...
Lou Kessler
Lou Kessler
My God this is the first time I've ever been invited to two different events on the same day. Please some details.originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
If you can't find the Natural Wine thingcome to Outside Lands "Winehaven" in GG Park; drink some ESJ, Qup, etc., etc.... hear some music, pretend you're younger than you are...
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
Steve, If I recall correctly, your 1985 and (I think also) 1986, both phenomenal wines, came in whole or part from Napa hillside Mourvdre, no?originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
In the first years of ESJ, in my search for old plantings of Mourvedre, I learned, to my chagrin, that there had, indeed, been a lot of old plantings of it, many in the hills around Napa Valley, that were taken out, in the rush, circa late '70s and early '80s, to accommodate new plantings of Cabernet Sauvignon. It seemed like every year I would hear two or three more stories in which someone discovered that one more patch of Mourvedre had been ripped untimely from the ground. No doubt there are places where Cabernet might make better wine than Mourvedre, but the reverse is also true. I think Aglianico, and, perhaps, Sagrantino might be good choices for a lot of Napa. A little Cabernet goes a long way.
Someone else mentioned the old Ridge Barbere. They were from the Ranch Pequeo vineyard and other than those of G. Conterno are probably the greatest wines I've had from this grape.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
I have been staring at these lines for a while. I finally understand what is wrong with them. (Well, really, with the second sentence; the others are fine.)originally posted by Hank Beckmeyer:
My point is - if you don't like CA wines, then don't drink them. But don't trash them for being what they are. They will always be riper and fuller than French wine, for instance. A well made CA wine has just as much validity as a well made Italian.
You say "don't trash them for being what they are" yet CA is replete with winemakers who don't believe in letting the wines be what they are (hence the proliferation of cones, chips, micro-ox, "sweet spot" titration, gm yeasts, and on and on).
[ The iconoclastic makers that we cheer, here on this board, prove by their general sanity just how coercive/uncreative "the industry" has become. ]
Hank Beckmeyer
Hank Beckmeyer
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
You say "don't trash them for being what they are" yet CA is replete with winemakers who don't believe in letting the wines be what they are (hence the proliferation of cones, chips, micro-ox, "sweet spot" titration, gm yeasts, and on and on).
YES! Sad, but true.
I would assume this board is most interested in those wines and winemakers who do not employ such "technological advances", right? Please don't project the sins of the many on the few people who are trying to do good. That's all I am saying.
Not all CA wine is technological shit, just as not all [insert your favorite wine growing region here] are wonderful.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Speaking for myself, if I taste a wine I like, I say so, and if I taste a wine I don't like, I say so.originally posted by Hank Beckmeyer:
I would assume this board is most interested in those wines and winemakers who do not employ such "technological advances", right? Please don't project the sins of the many on the few people who are trying to do good. That's all I am saying.
Not all CA wine is technological shit, just as not all [insert your favorite wine growing region here] are wonderful.
Regional generalizations, however, require hardened prejudice, coarse language, and mandatory disposal of all but a few facts.
---
On a related note, I just stumbled across a wonderful discussion of package vs ambient yeasts. Read the comments. All of them.
Thanks to SFJoe, from whose SFNatural site I ricocheted into this.
Steve Edmunds
Steve Edmunds
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Steve, If I recall correctly, your 1985 and (I think also) 1986, both phenomenal wines, came in whole or part from Napa hillside Mourvdre, no?originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
In the first years of ESJ, in my search for old plantings of Mourvedre, I learned, to my chagrin, that there had, indeed, been a lot of old plantings of it, many in the hills around Napa Valley, that were taken out, in the rush, circa late '70s and early '80s, to accommodate new plantings of Cabernet Sauvignon. It seemed like every year I would hear two or three more stories in which someone discovered that one more patch of Mourvedre had been ripped untimely from the ground. No doubt there are places where Cabernet might make better wine than Mourvedre, but the reverse is also true. I think Aglianico, and, perhaps, Sagrantino might be good choices for a lot of Napa. A little Cabernet goes a long way.
Someone else mentioned the old Ridge Barbere. They were from the Ranch Pequeo vineyard and other than those of G. Conterno are probably the greatest wines I've had from this grape.
Claude: yes, '85 and '86 Mourvedre from old vines at Brandlin Ranch on Mt. Veeder. In '87, they let me know they also had some old Carignan and I made a wine from both varieties that was 82% Mourvedre, and 11% Carignan, all from Brandlin (South-east facing slopes, decomposed Sandstone, underlain with clay) and 7% Cabernet Sauvignon from the East-facing slope of Spring Mountain, the old Leaky Lake Vineyard that Travis Fretter used to use. Wine was called Les Fleurs du Chapparal. Really nice stuff. Even made the top 100 in Spectator. (Big fucking deal).
Mourvedre has, at its best, a directness of expression that doesn't have all the bells and whistles of a variety like Cabernet, but relies, because of where it's grown, on the exceptionality of its site to persuade the taster of its superior nature. Many are not convinced, of course, because they like bells and whistles.
Christian Miller (CMM)
Christian Miller
California-bashers here and elsewhere are constantly conflating two separate issues - post-harvest manipulation and soft-tannin/high pH/alcoholic gobbiness. Van Williamson at Edmeades is a purist at letting the wines "be what they are", but given his vineyards and viticultural choices he makes some natural wines that many people on this board would hate. People complain about high alcohol wines, but complain about RO and other manipulations that are intended to bring the alcohol down and improve balance. You can make a gobby mess using little or no "manipulation" and you can make a zingy, well-balanced lively wine that has been groomed in the cellar to the nth degree.You say "don't trash them for being what they are" yet CA is replete with winemakers who don't believe in letting the wines be what they are (hence the proliferation of cones, chips, micro-ox, "sweet spot" titration, gm yeasts, and on and on).
Christian Miller (CMM)
Christian Miller
God yes, those were great wines, and it was a real pity to lose that vineyard. But then I've had some fine Cabernet from Mount Veeder too.Claude: yes, '85 and '86 Mourvedre from old vines at Brandlin Ranch on Mt. Veeder.
I don't know, Mourvedre has a lot of flavor "hooks" to interest people and not a lot to alienate them (assuming you don't indulge in Tempier level brett). I have to wonder - if Bandol was as famous as Bordeaux, wouldn't we have a lot more Mourvedre left in California.Mourvedre has, at its best, a directness of expression that doesn't have all the bells and whistles of a variety like Cabernet, but relies, because of where it's grown, on the exceptionality of its site to persuade the taster of its superior nature. Many are not convinced, of course, because they like bells and whistles.
Christian Miller (CMM)
Christian Miller
Yes, assuming they've been treated similarly and respectfully, Cabernets from two different soils in Sonoma Valley, or from Howell Mountain vs. St.Helena valley floor, will taste different.... But what about Merlot and Cab S? Do they really show the influence of terroir?
Christian Miller (CMM)
Christian Miller
So can you point me to the outstanding examples of CA Melon de Bourgogne? Chenin Blanc? Riesling? I agree with your larger point -- that you have to plant the right grapes in the right places -- but what then are the right grapes for Napa or Paso? Mourvedre? Carignan? Grenache? Nero d'Avola? Aglianico?
They're not going to give Huet sleepless nights, but the Old Vine Chenin Blanc from Ballentine, and the Chenins from Dry Creek Vineyards and Graziano are very nice wines.
Napa - Steve's Mt.Veeder Mourvedre was great wine. There is some fine Petite Sirah grown in Napa. Some fine Zins, too. No mention of Cab in Napa? Villa Mt.Eden 1974, Heitz 74 and 75 Martha's vineyard, Corison 2001 Kronos, numerous vintages of Phelps Eisele vineyard, Forman 86 and 87, Cain 2004 Concept - all great wines, IMHO.
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
So can you point me to the outstanding examples of CA Melon de Bourgogne? Chenin Blanc? Riesling? I agree with your larger point -- that you have to plant the right grapes in the right places -- but what then are the right grapes for Napa or Paso? Mourvedre? Carignan? Grenache? Nero d'Avola? Aglianico?
They're not going to give Huet sleepless nights, but the Old Vine Chenin Blanc from Ballentine, and the Chenins from Dry Creek Vineyards and Graziano are very nice wines.
Napa - Steve's Mt.Veeder Mourvedre was great wine. There is some fine Petite Sirah grown in Napa. Some fine Zins, too. No mention of Cab in Napa? Villa Mt.Eden 1974, Heitz 74 and 75 Martha's vineyard, Corison 2001 Kronos, numerous vintages of Phelps Eisele vineyard, Forman 86 and 87, Cain 2004 Concept - all great wines, IMHO.
Christian,
Certainly there's a place for Cabernet Sauvignon in Napa, but the current monoculture places a lot of those vines in places they oughtn't to be. Cathy Corison's wines are an outstanding example of what CalCab can be even in these hot times IMO. In general, though, I prefer the Cabs coming from Mt. Veeder and Howell Mtn and wonder what would do better down in the alluvial plain. Maybe tomatoes?
Mark Lipton
originally posted by MLipton:
No problem. I think that, among this crowd, I sit at one end of the spectrum as I still accord about 20% of my cellar space to wines from CA. The fact that a handful of CA producers account for the lions' share of that space is neither here nor there. (BTW, kudos on your Sobon Estate work: I've had some very nice Zins from there; ditto with Shenandoah Vyds, but those were in the late '70s)
TWENTY percent!!!
Does the Politburo know? I hear they have some nice camps for your type. Siberia or someplace similar --- they have a solid physical training regimen, or so I hear.
Lou Kessler
Lou Kessler
I see Cathy Corison at the chamber music programs on a regular basis but they don't operate during the summer. Do you know for sure where she's getting her fruit from?originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
So can you point me to the outstanding examples of CA Melon de Bourgogne? Chenin Blanc? Riesling? I agree with your larger point -- that you have to plant the right grapes in the right places -- but what then are the right grapes for Napa or Paso? Mourvedre? Carignan? Grenache? Nero d'Avola? Aglianico?
They're not going to give Huet sleepless nights, but the Old Vine Chenin Blanc from Ballentine, and the Chenins from Dry Creek Vineyards and Graziano are very nice wines.
Napa - Steve's Mt.Veeder Mourvedre was great wine. There is some fine Petite Sirah grown in Napa. Some fine Zins, too. No mention of Cab in Napa? Villa Mt.Eden 1974, Heitz 74 and 75 Martha's vineyard, Corison 2001 Kronos, numerous vintages of Phelps Eisele vineyard, Forman 86 and 87, Cain 2004 Concept - all great wines, IMHO.
Christian,
Certainly there's a place for Cabernet Sauvignon in Napa, but the current monoculture places a lot of those vines in places they oughtn't to be. Cathy Corison's wines are an outstanding example of what CalCab can be even in these hot times IMO. In general, though, I prefer the Cabs coming from Mt. Veeder and Howell Mtn and wonder what would do better down in the alluvial plain. Maybe tomatoes?
Mark Lipton
I don't due wine critiques pertaining to the valley but take my word for it all cabs from MT Veeder, Howell Mt, other hillside locations are not created equal.
That also goes for wine from the valley floor.
Lou Kessler
Lou Kessler
I see Cathy Corison at the chamber music programs on a regular basis but they don't operate during the summer. Do you know for sure where she's getting her fruit from?originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
So can you point me to the outstanding examples of CA Melon de Bourgogne? Chenin Blanc? Riesling? I agree with your larger point -- that you have to plant the right grapes in the right places -- but what then are the right grapes for Napa or Paso? Mourvedre? Carignan? Grenache? Nero d'Avola? Aglianico?
They're not going to give Huet sleepless nights, but the Old Vine Chenin Blanc from Ballentine, and the Chenins from Dry Creek Vineyards and Graziano are very nice wines.
Napa - Steve's Mt.Veeder Mourvedre was great wine. There is some fine Petite Sirah grown in Napa. Some fine Zins, too. No mention of Cab in Napa? Villa Mt.Eden 1974, Heitz 74 and 75 Martha's vineyard, Corison 2001 Kronos, numerous vintages of Phelps Eisele vineyard, Forman 86 and 87, Cain 2004 Concept - all great wines, IMHO.
Christian,
Certainly there's a place for Cabernet Sauvignon in Napa, but the current monoculture places a lot of those vines in places they oughtn't to be. Cathy Corison's wines are an outstanding example of what CalCab can be even in these hot times IMO. In general, though, I prefer the Cabs coming from Mt. Veeder and Howell Mtn and wonder what would do better down in the alluvial plain. Maybe tomatoes?
Mark Lipton
I don't due wine critiques pertaining to the valley but take my word for it all cabs from MT Veeder, Howell Mt, other hillside locations are not created equal.
That also goes for wine from the valley floor.
originally posted by SFJoe:
I've heard the same story about the Sonoma barbera that Ridge used to make--ripped out for merlot. At least in that case the karmic justice was swift.originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
In the first years of ESJ, in my search for old plantings of Mourvedre, I learned, to my chagrin, that there had, indeed, been a lot of old plantings of it, many in the hills around Napa Valley, that were taken out, in the rush, circa late '70s and early '80s, to accommodate new plantings of Cabernet Sauvignon. It seemed like every year I would hear two or three more stories in which someone discovered that one more patch of Mourvedre had been ripped untimely from the ground. No doubt there are places where Cabernet might make better wine than Mourvedre, but the reverse is also true. I think Aglianico, and, perhaps, Sagrantino might be good choices for a lot of Napa. A little Cabernet goes a long way.
Damn, Memory Lane here.