The Fuss: Sancerre and Alsace

[VLM]

originally posted by Joe Dressner:
My question:

Can the average middle class person afford to drink the Trimback Cuve Frdric Emile?

At this point, the middle class can no longer touch the Clos-St-Hune!

Speaking as your average middle-class wine consumer, nope.

I'm done with Cuve Frdric Emile for the most part. I'd buy Boxler Sommerberg if it were available locally and not $50.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Filippo Mattia Ginanni:

originally posted by David M. Bueker:
Filippo,

German Auslese and Alsatian Riesling (in its proper form) are not even remotely interchangeable in style or purpose. If you bring the Grosses Gewachs wines into the discussion (a better comparison) then you are dealing with wines that cost the same or more than wines like Boxler Brand or CFE.

As for absolutequality levels, I would put Boxler & Trimbach in the same ring with Prum, Donnhoff and their peers in Germany.

Daivd,

duly noted. What about Austria (not a flame just do not know the country) ?

F.

Knoll, Hirtzberger, Nikolaihof.

Prager, Hirsch, Nigl, Alzinger, Gobelsberger, Hiedler.

All of these producers make excellent wines. IMO, only Boxler can touch them for dry riesling.

 

[mlawton]

What a bizarre view!

Some of those producers are good - and you forgot Salomon and Jamek, to name two.

But to compare regions like baseball cards - well, that's just silly. Have you ever tried Kientzler? Scheuller? I'm not a huge fan of the dry/GG/EG style from Germany but there are a few there that I like too - Van Volxem for one.

I can't ever remember being in the cellar looking for an Alsacian wine and coming up with an Austrian or dry German instead. They are very different horses for very different courses - pun intended.

I think a more reasonable approach would be to compare them within regions, if you really must compare. Or you could use the 100 point system, since that makes everything absolute, after all.

And Boxler is good, no doubt - but some of their rieslings I've had recently would hardly qualify as "dry".

 

[David M. Bueker]

I'm not sure how one can complain about pricing (i.e. Boxler Sommerberg at $50) then talk about Hirtzberger, Knoll and Nikolaihof.

I drink a lot of Riesling from Austria, but it's no longer a region for hunting QPR. The days of Steiner Hund for under $30 have long gone. In fact most of the top Austrian Rieslings cost the same or more than CFE in my market.

 

[Joe Dressner]

originally posted by David M. Bueker:
I'm not sure how one can complain about pricing (i.e. Boxler Sommerberg at $50) then talk about Hirtzberger, Knoll and Nikolaihof.

I drink a lot of Riesling from Austria, but it's no longer a region for hunting QPR. The days of Steiner Hund for under $30 have long gone. In fact most of the top Austrian Rieslings cost the same or more than CFE in my market.

What can the middle class drink these days?

 

[David M. Bueker]

originally posted by Joe Dressner:


What can the middle class drink these days?

Muscadet?

As always it depends on how one defines middle class. Given the overall costs of living I fail to see how people with median level incomes can afford tap water much less wine.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by mlawton:
Some of those producers are good - and you forgot Salomon and Jamek, to name two.

I did forget Jamek (who can slide into the second tier), but did not forget Soloman. It was a tiered list off the top of my head, but about covers it.

But to compare regions like baseball cards - well, that's just silly.

No it isn't. It's an interesting intellectual pastime. You don't have to play if you don't want to. I'm not particularly taken with relativism, so I enjoy the game.

Have you ever tried Kientzler? Scheuller?

Yes. Eh. But I'm probably not the last word on the subject.

I can't ever remember being in the cellar looking for an Alsacian wine and coming up with an Austrian or dry German instead. They are very different horses for very different courses - pun intended.

I guess, to a point. I guess it all turns on whether you think the commonality outweighs the differences.

I think a more reasonable approach would be to compare them within regions, if you really must compare. Or you could use the 100 point system, since that makes everything absolute, after all.

I think comparing similarly styled riesling across region is perfectly reasonable.

And Boxler is good, no doubt - but some of their rieslings I've had recently would hardly qualify as "dry".

Not sure about the technical results and I almost put dry(-ish), but didn't want to muddle the discussion any more than it already is.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by David M. Bueker:
I'm not sure how one can complain about pricing (i.e. Boxler Sommerberg at $50) then talk about Hirtzberger, Knoll and Nikolaihof.

I drink a lot of Riesling from Austria, but it's no longer a region for hunting QPR. The days of Steiner Hund for under $30 have long gone. In fact most of the top Austrian Rieslings cost the same or more than CFE in my market.

This is true. I haven't bought much Knoll, Hirtzberger or Nikolaihof in recent vintages due to just that.

Boxler Sommerberg is probably fairly priced compared to these wines of similar quality.

Personally, I just don't think the CFE is worth the money at that price point.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Joe Dressner:

originally posted by David M. Bueker:
I'm not sure how one can complain about pricing (i.e. Boxler Sommerberg at $50) then talk about Hirtzberger, Knoll and Nikolaihof.

I drink a lot of Riesling from Austria, but it's no longer a region for hunting QPR. The days of Steiner Hund for under $30 have long gone. In fact most of the top Austrian Rieslings cost the same or more than CFE in my market.

What can the middle class drink these days?

Romo!

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by David M. Bueker:

originally posted by Joe Dressner:


What can the middle class drink these days?

Muscadet

Txakoli(na), baby!
Riesling Kabinett and selected QbA
Grner Veltliner Federspiel and, if you can find it, Steinfeder

... and, for those moments when light and lithe whites with good definition won't do, there's CHARDONNAY

All hail the Mconnais!

From deep within the Middle Class,
Mark Lipton

p.s. Where is a Boatloads of Cheap Crap when you need one?

 

[Thor]

At around 25, there is an orgy of top level Auslese: I have in front of me JJ Prum 2008's prices and the Wehlener Sonnenuhr is around 23 and if you look hard/long enough you can find the 2005 for 25. JJ needs time to develop. Maybe Boxler is the equivalent of JJ.

It unquestionably is. There are maybe a half-dozen producers in Alsace that could be argued to be at that level (though I, personally, wouldn't agree with all of them), but I suspect the one on which you'll find the most agreement is Boxler. As I keep repeating, though, a 2005 Boxler Sommerberg is a very good wine and approachable in its youth, but nothing like a 2005 Boxler Sommerberg fifteen years from now; if you're not familiar with the category's aged qualities, it's not going to mean much to you.

And that's why nipping at a 2004 CFE and dismissing the category as a result is so silly. No, the 2004 isn't their best CFE. But in a better vintage, you'd be decades from being able to know anything useful about the wine. This is even more true for the CSH. Since you brought it up, I wouldn't pour young JJ Prm for someone who wasn't savvy, re: the sulfur, either.

Don't listen to VLM, by the way. Boxler's rieslings are rarely dry. They are sometimes, and I think it's a sort of a back-of-the-mind stylistic goal, but given how hot Alsace is for the grape, it's not often achievable anymore.

The sensible stylistic objection to Alsatian riesling (assuming one likes riesling in the first place) is that rather than 8-11% alcohol with crisp acidity and balancing residual sugar, the wines are 13-15% (and these days, possibly more from certain vineyards). And that was one thing when the wines were typically dry, but as everything warms up and the choice is between 17% and residual sugar -- or at the more ridiculous ripeness-craving producers, why choose? -- the whole notion of "balance" is difficult to apply if one's paradigm is MSR riesling. I do get that objection. Like Mike, it would be a very rare occasion were I to go to the cellar for an MSR and come up with a Weinbach, or vice-versa. Two completely different ideas.

But again, CFE is a 15 to 25-year wine. Assessing it at release is not entry-level tasting, and not everyone's going to make the right call. Yes, sometimes the quality's so obvious it slaps you about the head (2001). But that's the exception, not the rule.

 

[Joel Stewart]

originally posted by Joe Dressner:

originally posted by David M. Bueker:
I'm not sure how one can complain about pricing (i.e. Boxler Sommerberg at $50) then talk about Hirtzberger, Knoll and Nikolaihof.

I drink a lot of Riesling from Austria, but it's no longer a region for hunting QPR. The days of Steiner Hund for under $30 have long gone. In fact most of the top Austrian Rieslings cost the same or more than CFE in my market.

What can the middle class drink these days?

Willi B in $35 and under satisfy me.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Thor:
It unquestionably is. There are maybe a half-dozen producers in Alsace that could be argued to be at that level (though I, personally, wouldn't agree with all of them), but I suspect the one on which you'll find the most agreement is Boxler. As I keep repeating, though, a 2005 Boxler Sommerberg is a very good wine and approachable in its youth, but nothing like a 2005 Boxler Sommerberg fifteen years from now; if you're not familiar with the category's aged qualities, it's not going to mean much to you.

I don't know. I tend to like these wines younger than most. I'm not terribly keen on the petrol and lactic things that rieslings can pick up with age. I don't really buy tons for the cellar anymore and have sold off almost all my Donnhoff. That probably represents a minority view though. I think Boxler is great young-ish on your scale.

And that's why nipping at a 2004 CFE and dismissing the category as a result is so silly. No, the 2004 isn't their best CFE. But in a better vintage, you'd be decades from being able to know anything useful about the wine.

I don't believe this to be completely true, but it certainly needs a bit of time.

Don't listen to VLM, by the way. Boxler's rieslings are rarely dry. They are sometimes, and I think it's a sort of a back-of-the-mind stylistic goal, but given how hot Alsace is for the grape, it's not often achievable anymore.

Dry-ish.

The sensible stylistic objection to Alsatian riesling (assuming one likes riesling in the first place) is that rather than 8-11% alcohol with crisp acidity and balancing residual sugar, the wines are 13-15% (and these days, possibly more from certain vineyards). And that was one thing when the wines were typically dry, but as everything warms up and the choice is between 17% and residual sugar -- or at the more ridiculous ripeness-craving producers, why choose? -- the whole notion of "balance" is difficult to apply if one's paradigm is MSR riesling. I do get that objection. Like Mike, it would be a very rare occasion were I to go to the cellar for an MSR and come up with a Weinbach, or vice-versa. Two completely different ideas.

So how does CFE come in in terms of alcohol and rs?

What if folks just picked earlier?

 

[VLM]

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by David M. Bueker:

originally posted by Joe Dressner:


What can the middle class drink these days?

Muscadet

Txakoli(na), baby!
Riesling Kabinett and selected QbA
Grner Veltliner Federspiel and, if you can find it, Steinfeder

... and, for those moments when light and lithe whites with good definition won't do, there's CHARDONNAY

All hail the Mconnais!

From deep within the Middle Class,
Mark Lipton

p.s. Where is a Boatloads of Cheap Crap when you need one?

I love chardonnay. Dougherty is completely whack on that.

 

[Sharon Bowman]

You tell 'em!

 

[Filippo Mattia Ginanni]

I am learning more from this thread than I could possibly expect!

Keep it going... As far as the Alsace riesling debate my personal taste is more inclined to low alchool and maybe off dry style from MSR but will wonder in Alsace from time to time (still I could live without the region in the same way most people could away with MSR)...

 

[Thor]

I don't know. I tend to like these wines younger than most.

But that's a general truism. I mean, we kid you and all, but a reasonable percentage of your comments here are "drink X earlier rather than later," and "I don't think it will benefit from age," etc. Sure, to each their own elevated uric acid, and so forth, but I tend to feel that Alsatian riesling is a particularly poor candidate for early drinking when it's an ageable wine. I do think you're in the minority if you prefer something like CFE on the young side, but of course you're free to do so anyway. For me, young CFE is like eating a white truffle with a cold that's preventing me from smelling it, and closed-period CFE -- it has a pretty long one, usually -- is like not having the truffle at all.

I'm not terribly keen on the petrol and lactic things that rieslings can pick up with age.

I understand that. Though I'd argue that the two wines we're typing the most about here, Boxler Sommerberg (let's throw Brand in there too) and CFE (and we'll add CSH) rarely show much of either with age. The Trimbachs tend towards raw steel and salted, almost autumnal metal, respectively, while Boxler's warmer vineyards retain a little more richness (especially the Brand, which also retains spice). Some wines -- Beyer's -- do the reverse: they tend towards petrol in their youth, and then shed it after a few decades. I remember a '72 consumed in about 1999 (at a local restaurant with swans floating on the river) that was many times more vibrant, fresh, and "youthful" than the current vintage I'd tasted earlier that day chez Beyer.

All that said, like you I'm not an enormous fan of overt petrol either, and my objection to the lactic thing applies more to Germans; it's not that I don't like the quality, exactly, it's that I think it makes the wines taste largely the same from one terroir to another, and that's not what I'm into German rieslings for.

I think Boxler is great young-ish on your scale.

I will agree that given a typical, representative list of young Alsatian rieslings (say, at a restaurant), I'd order the Boxler before many other wines I like as much, or almost as much, in confidence that I won't be struggling to peer into a closed vessel all night.

Dry-ish.

If you're Kane, sure.

No, no, you're not entirely wrong. I know that it's a goal, as I understand our conversations on the matter, but it's not really achievable all that often without imbalancing the wines.

So how does CFE come in in terms of alcohol and rs?

Pierre is more willing to leave a tiny bit of RS in the wines than Bernard was -- given the changing mesoclimates, he doesn't really have a choice -- but it's only been noticeable in (if I remember correctly) two vintages. (I haven't tasted the '03.) Other than those rare exceptions, it's dry by the usual standards. The goal of the VTs remains near-dryness, though of course in years where they're possible that's extremely unlikely anymore.

As for alcohols...winemakers are always cagey (but not as cagey as marketing directors, and I've more often tasted with the latter than the former), but the number on the label (12.5%) is a fair average, from what I've gleaned. Sometimes it's lower. Sometimes slightly higher. In neither case is it like the gewurztraminers, which...well, I don't want to get anyone into trouble.

What if folks just picked earlier?

Some do. Trimbach's certainly not averse to it, though again this is more of an issue with the other grapes and the ngociant rieslings. I will say that it has been a long, long time since anyone there has bragged about late harvesting dates for anything other than a VT/SGN.

As for why most of the others don't pick earlier, I should think that's obvious.

 

[mlawton]

03 CFE ain't bad. Certainly not as bad as I feared. RS, yeah, there's some. High alcohol - a little. But I found it drinkable, which is high praise for a riesling from 2003, in my book. If you see it on close-out, buy one. I think I have one more in the basement so I'll save it, if I can find it.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Thor:

I don't know. I tend to like these wines younger than most.

But that's a general truism. I mean, we kid you and all, but a reasonable percentage of your comments here are "drink X earlier rather than later," and "I don't think it will benefit from age," etc. Sure, to each their own elevated uric acid, and so forth, but I tend to feel that Alsatian riesling is a particularly poor candidate for early drinking when it's an ageable wine. I do think you're in the minority if you prefer something like CFE on the young side, but of course you're free to do so anyway. For me, young CFE is like eating a white truffle with a cold that's preventing me from smelling it, and closed-period CFE -- and it has a pretty long one, usually -- is like not having the truffle at all.

Well, I think it is perfectly OK to be drinking your mid-90s CFE right now.

And yes, I do think the old thing gets overplayed. It's not that I don't understand the merits of aging wine, I just think it gets overplayed and parlayed onto all sorts of wines for which extended aging doesn't bring any discernible merit.

I'm not terribly keen on the petrol and lactic things that rieslings can pick up with age.

I understand that. Though I'd argue that the two wines we're typing the most about here, Boxler Sommerberg (let's throw Brand in there too) and CFE (and we'll add CSH) rarely show much of either with age.

All that said, like you I'm not an enormous fan of overt petrol either, and my objection to the lactic thing applies more to Germans; it's not that I don't like the quality, exactly, it's that I think it makes the wines taste largely the same from one terroir to another, and that's not what I'm into German rieslings for.

Sure, to both. Why I sold my Donnhoff, couldn't deal with the lactic thing.

 

[Thor]

Well, I think it is perfectly OK to be drinking your mid-90s CFE right now.

All of them? I can't agree with that. '94, yes. Maybe one or two others. But not '96, for sure. '95 isn't where I want it. I've always been low on early-90s CFEs, but I'm certainly in no hurry to drink the '90s I have left.

Why I sold my Donnhoff, couldn't deal with the lactic thing.

Cult flipper!

Mike, no need. I won't be around to taste it any time soon. But thanks.