Four Wines

[Ned Hoey]

I've some experience CdB wines over some vintages. I think Beaune Imports took up with them starting with the '98 or '99 vintage. While I enjoy their wines and understand the appeal, my experience has been that their reds have a signature flavor profile. I quickly became able to pick their wines out in small single blind flights because of it. The same has also been true of Comte de Vogue. My guess is that this distinctive flavor element is due to consistent use of a specific commercial yeast, possibly in the context of certain cooperage and other levage elements. For that reason I became less enamored of the wines.
It didn't seem true to the terroir and made evident the hand of the winemaker.

As for Cortons, it's true that when made traditionally they need time, like umm decades, but when they do
finally enter the home stretch, it becomes clear why it's a Grand Cru. Unfortunately that time thing is super inconvenient. Sometimes deals can be found at auction for 50s and 60s examples. That's how I experienced it.

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Are you a C d B fan, generally?

I am definitely a fan. They suit my stylistic preferences of being flavorful yet delicately aromatic, structured, and minerally. They are not mindblowing wines but the price is right so I've bought them whenever I see them as it is nice to be able to compare across vintages. I am slowly starting to do that with other Savigny/Pernand producers to build up a broader repertoire.

Thanks Rahsaan. I'm still sorting out my own b'y preferences, but so far I lean heavily towards the profile you describe, rather than beefier, richer wines (I think) for further north and lower altitudes.

As far as I can tell, CbB's reputation is for very traditional wine-making. I'm slowly wallowing through Coates's first book, and he calls Ile de Vergelesses PV's 'grand cru,' for what that's worth.

Thanks for the comments by others, too.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Ned Hoey: My guess is that this distinctive flavor element is due to consistent use of a specific commercial yeast...

For what it's worth, their website currently says that they use indigenous yeasts for all of the red wines. Nothing is said about yeasts for the white wines.

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

They are also supposed to be biodynamic as of 2005 - I don't know, though: does BD extend to the winemaking (e.g., wild vs commercial yeast), or does it just cover vineyard practices?

By the way, Rahsaan, apropos minerally and aromatic, did you ever get around to trying Lafouge last year?

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:

By the way, Rahsaan, apropos minerally and aromatic, did you ever get around to trying Lafouge last year?

No! Same old story, too much wine and not enough time. But if I see some soon I'll try to buy it.

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

Swing by outback VA one day and we'll have one together.

Chambers carries them, BTW, if you ever meet up with the fringe NY crowd.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Ned Hoey: My guess is that this distinctive flavor element is due to consistent use of a specific commercial yeast...

For what it's worth, their website currently says that they use indigenous yeasts for all of the red wines. Nothing is said about yeasts for the white wines.

You beat me to it. This is about as low tech/old fashioned a domaine as you will find in the Cte d'Or (not that you don't get an occasional surprise, e.g., Maume used commercial yeasts all along when Bernard was in charge, and that, too, was as low tech an estate as you could imagine). At CdB, no new wood on the reds, for the whites only to replace barrels that have outlived useful life. If I remember, I'll ask about yeasts when I'm there next month.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
They are also supposed to be biodynamic as of 2005 - I don't know, though: does BD extend to the winemaking (e.g., wild vs commercial yeast), or does it just cover vineyard practices?

By the way, Rahsaan, apropos minerally and aromatic, did you ever get around to trying Lafouge last year?

Biodynamie relates only to vineyard practices unless you count determining what day to do bottling, etc. according to phases of the moon.

Since Chapoutier has been biodynamic for awhile, and I think Mordoree is now, it can clearly live with a heavy hand in elevage practices. There are other domaines in the Southern Rhone where it's all the rage and recommended by Cambie, I think, that would equally make this point.

 

[pab]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
They are also supposed to be biodynamic as of 2005 - I don't know, though: does BD extend to the winemaking (e.g., wild vs commercial yeast), or does it just cover vineyard practices?

By the way, Rahsaan, apropos minerally and aromatic, did you ever get around to trying Lafouge last year?

Biodynamie relates only to vineyard practices unless you count determining what day to do bottling, etc. according to phases of the moon.

Since Chapoutier has been biodynamic for awhile, and I think Mordoree is now, it can clearly live with a heavy hand in elevage practices. There are other domaines in the Southern Rhone where it's all the rage and recommended by Cambie, I think, that would equally make this point.

Mordoree isn't biodynamic at all. Chapoutier is certified but he's running also a negoce... About Cambie and like you know, he's not a bio-warrior.
Next thursday in prime time, France 2 will program a TV show about "Le vin naturel" in "Envoye special" and maybe also in catch-up TV on france2.fr
Best regards

 

[slaton]

originally posted by Ned Hoey:
While I enjoy their wines and understand the appeal, my experience has been that their reds have a signature flavor profile. I quickly became able to pick their wines out in small single blind flights because of it.

Interesting. I've been told things like this with regard to fining agents used by some very top-shelf white Burgundy producers, and the signature role they play in these wines' aromatic profiles.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by pab:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
They are also supposed to be biodynamic as of 2005 - I don't know, though: does BD extend to the winemaking (e.g., wild vs commercial yeast), or does it just cover vineyard practices?

By the way, Rahsaan, apropos minerally and aromatic, did you ever get around to trying Lafouge last year?

Biodynamie relates only to vineyard practices unless you count determining what day to do bottling, etc. according to phases of the moon.

Since Chapoutier has been biodynamic for awhile, and I think Mordoree is now, it can clearly live with a heavy hand in elevage practices. There are other domaines in the Southern Rhone where it's all the rage and recommended by Cambie, I think, that would equally make this point.

Mordoree isn't biodynamic at all. Chapoutier is certified but he's running also a negoce... About Cambie and like you know, he's not a bio-warrior.
Next thursday in prime time, France 2 will program a TV show about "Le vin naturel" in "Envoye special" and maybe also in catch-up TV on france2.fr
Best regards

I read that Mordoree was going to go biodynamic somewhere. I apologize if this is incorrect. I know it isn't now.

Chapoutier's non-negoce wines are sufficient to make my point. I would add to the list Montirius in Vacqueyras which is quite vigorously biodynamic and indeed doesn't use wood or other weird elevage practices that I know about but turns out wines that don't taste like Vacqueyras or Gigondas to me.

Here is a statement by Cambie:

Tous dmarre a la vigne, sans grand raisins les plus sain possible rien nest possible, cest pour cela que jai un gros faible pour lagriculture biologique et quun grosse majorit des domaines avec qui je travaille vont dans cette direction.
Je veux que tous les vins soit lexpression de leur terroir. Et surtout ne se ressemble en aucun point, leur seul ressemblance sera leur belle qualit.

Obviously this is not the same thing as a weakness for biodynamie and lots of people talk this way without it having much meaning. But, again perhaps incorrectly, I have heard that he is becoming enthusiastic about biodynamie.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

Alas all I get of France 2 is whatever shows up on TV 5 Monde, which is usually just le Journal with Pujada. Maybe this will be an exception and show up there too.

 

[Ned Hoey]

originally posted by slaton:

originally posted by Ned Hoey:
While I enjoy their wines and understand the appeal, my experience has been that their reds have a signature flavor profile. I quickly became able to pick their wines out in small single blind flights because of it.

Interesting. I've been told things like this with regard to fining agents used by some very top-shelf white Burgundy producers, and the signature role they play in these wines' aromatic profiles.

My experience of the singular profile was with the reds. It's been a while, but I remember it as
a round creamy texture, glyceryl, a slight chocolate element, I want to say a tropical note, as odd as that may sound for a red. This was drawn from tasting the years '98 thru '02. I haven't tasted more recent vintages. So it may be that practices have been evolving since then. It seems like Burgundy has beens going through a dynamic period and so what was true 5 years ago may be different now. The yeast notion is just a guess, but the flavor profile was so distinctive that I couldn't see it being derived from the terroir.

Regarding "tradition" in Burgundian winemaking, wouldn't inoculation with commercial yeast be more
traditional? At least since WWII? Even in an otherwise low tech cellar?

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Ned Hoey:

Regarding "tradition" in Burgundian winemaking, wouldn't inoculation with commercial yeast be more
traditional? At least since WWII? Even in an otherwise low tech cellar?

It depends on what the traditional definition of "tradition" is. I look at the practices introduced in the 1950s-1970s as departures from tradition that largely degraded the wines, and prior practices that forward-looking producers attempted to recover beginning in the 1980s (for a few, many more now) as "traditional."

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Ned Hoey: a round creamy texture, glyceryl, a slight chocolate element, I want to say a tropical note, as odd as that may sound for a red.

That does sound odd. I've had my fair share of CdB from 98-06 and if anything I would have said the 'house style' was a dark red earthiness, something I attributed to the quality of the tannins and the acids.

 

[Ned Hoey]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Ned Hoey:

Regarding "tradition" in Burgundian winemaking, wouldn't inoculation with commercial yeast be more
traditional? At least since WWII? Even in an otherwise low tech cellar?

It depends on what the traditional definition of "tradition" is. I look at the practices introduced in the 1950s-1970s as departures from tradition that largely degraded the wines, and prior practices that forward-looking producers attempted to recover beginning in the 1980s (for a few, many more now) as "traditional."

Right I do to, it's just that standard practices changed significantly for an extended period of time. As we both believe, Traditional should mean something that evolved over a very long time period. Burgundy
like many other regions lost touch with it's true traditions during those years and is indeed returning
to them. So then if we're going to use the term tradition when referring to the "old ways", how
should we differentiate that from what became common practice since WWII?

 

[Ned Hoey]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Ned Hoey: a round creamy texture, glyceryl, a slight chocolate element, I want to say a tropical note, as odd as that may sound for a red.

That does sound odd. I've had my fair share of CdB from 98-06 and if anything I would have said the 'house style' was a dark red earthiness, something I attributed to the quality of the tannins and the acids.

Well it's been a few years and I've failed to recall it well enough to put my finger on it in a way that communicated something meaningful to you. Dark earthiness certainly applies but doesn't get specifically to the distinctive elements I remember being able to pick out in a blind flight. Not that important but
I'm curious what was responsible for it.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Ned Hoey: Dark earthiness certainly applies but doesn't get specifically to the distinctive elements I remember being able to pick out in a blind flight.

Yes, sort of recognized your 'chocolate' descriptor, although more in a bitter chocolate way. Round, creamy, and glyceryl do not seem typical to me. I guess I need to open more bottles!

 

[Ned Hoey]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Ned Hoey: Dark earthiness certainly applies but doesn't get specifically to the distinctive elements I remember being able to pick out in a blind flight.

Yes, sort of recognized your 'chocolate' descriptor, although more in a bitter chocolate way. Round, creamy, and glyceryl do not seem typical to me. I guess I need to open more bottles!

OK never mind those. this will teach me to attempt a half assed note years later. The point was the
consistent element that was not attributable to terroir and was a kind of marker or signature of the domain. What was it?

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Ned Hoey: The point was the consistent element that was not attributable to terroir and was a kind of marker or signature of the domain. What was it?

Whole-cluster fermentation? I thought that was responsible for the quality of the tannins.