Cory Cartwright
Cory Cartwright
sounds like you need a drink. lapierre should do the trick.
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Storage Issues: What should I put in my wine cooler?
- Thread starter Yule Kim
- Start date
Yule, figure out whether or not you like the wines first, and worry about categorizing them later. I also agree with the academic cohort that if you're holding onto wine that you don't even know if you like or not, especially in a limited-space cellar situation, you should probably consider finding out.
Salil Benegal
Salil Benegal
Haven't had the 1er Cru, but the Clos des Ducs was completely inscrutable several months back and offering absolutely nothing. At least there are many other fun things to open in the next 20 years.originally posted by Rahsaan:
Really? I just ordered a few bottles of this and assumed it would give pleasure well before 20 years from now. Woe is me?
originally posted by Salil Benegal:
Haven't had the 1er Cru, but the Clos des Ducs was completely inscrutable several months back and offering absolutely nothing..
I can see that. And my previous experiences with d'Angerville have been more or less in that mold.
But to be honest I won't be waiting 20 years to open these 05 1er Cru Volnays. Like Yule, my cellar is not yet that deep!
... you have the rare chance to be an anomalous voice around here, crying out in the wilderness.
Yes, you'll see how far that's gotten me around here.
Seriously though, I think Parker has a pretty good palate when it comes to Bordeaux since that is what he cut his teeth on, professionally and personally, especially if you avoid the super-spoofed properties (tend to avoid his picks of St Emillion, Pomerol, etc.), but then I've never been a big promoter of dogma for the sake of dogma.
And I assumed, spoofed, modern, and parkerized were fairly interchangeable.
...ahh, grasshopper...
Though perhaps I'm overanalyzing everything at this point and should just drink and not worry about it so much.
Are you Rahsaan's alter ego, by any chance??
Levi Dalton
Levi Dalton
Private Message to Chris Coad:
Chris, this Yule character you have created seems to have really fooled everyone. Well done!
As they say, sincerity is key. If you can fake that, you are golden.
Chris, this Yule character you have created seems to have really fooled everyone. Well done!
As they say, sincerity is key. If you can fake that, you are golden.
Arjun Mendiratta
Arjun Mendiratta
I had the '05 d'Angerville a few months ago and it was just incredibly dense and tough. It's definitely going to take a while.
And, to reiterate what Thor said, you really have to kill a few babies to figure out what you like, there's no other way.
And, to reiterate what Thor said, you really have to kill a few babies to figure out what you like, there's no other way.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
originally posted by MarkS:
... you have the rare chance to be an anomalous voice around here, crying out in the wilderness.
Yes, you'll see how far that's gotten me around here.
Seriously though, I think Parker has a pretty good palate when it comes to Bordeaux since that is what he cut his teeth on, professionally and personally, especially if you avoid the super-spoofed properties (tend to avoid his picks of St Emillion, Pomerol, etc.), but then I've never been a big promoter of dogma for the sake of dogma.
I used to feel this way about Parker and the Southern Rhone. I first learned the names and the players from him and he knows what traditional versions of the wine taste like and he likes those versions. The problem is that Parker also likes oaked, polished weird versions and he doesn't distinguish between the two usually (although he can when he wants to), so his comments are less helpful than they used to be unless one is willing to engage in the forms of exegesis that neo-Platonists used to use on Homer. In the Rhone, I can still follow him to an extent based on my familiarity with the names and players. In Bordeaux, where I don't keep up, I abandoned him after I bought Monbousquet in the mid 90s on his advice and have been living with the error ever since.
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg: I bought Monbousquet in the mid 90s on his advice and have been living with the error ever since.
How much did you buy? Can't get rid of it?
Looks like some infanticide is in order. Would I have to decant the '05 Ambroise Burgundy and the '06 Bordeauxs at this point or should I just drink them without bothering with the decant? Also, if I was going to give them air, can I just leave the bottle open or should I buy a decanter?
Sincerely,
Yule Kim (aka Chris Coad/Rahsaan's alter ego).
Sincerely,
Yule Kim (aka Chris Coad/Rahsaan's alter ego).
Andrew Gold
Andrew Gold
Yule,
I'm assuming you know about cellartracker.com? There are very frequently tasting notes on the wines I'm thinking about killing young where the tasters describe how long they did or did not decant the wine. It's been fairly helpful in coming up with approaches for me to judge young wines, though like everything else on the net your results may vary.
I do think that the best approach to starting with wine is to simply drink everything you buy. If you love some of the bottles try and pick up a couple more to try down the road. I didn't follow this advice and already (maybe 2 years into a cellar) have a fair amount of wines I have less interest in than the money I spent on the bottle.
I think it's also great advice not to get bogged down into a dogma too early (maybe even ever) as you can miss out on some amazing wines at all sorts of places on the spectrum by closing yourself off to them.
I'm assuming you know about cellartracker.com? There are very frequently tasting notes on the wines I'm thinking about killing young where the tasters describe how long they did or did not decant the wine. It's been fairly helpful in coming up with approaches for me to judge young wines, though like everything else on the net your results may vary.
I do think that the best approach to starting with wine is to simply drink everything you buy. If you love some of the bottles try and pick up a couple more to try down the road. I didn't follow this advice and already (maybe 2 years into a cellar) have a fair amount of wines I have less interest in than the money I spent on the bottle.
I think it's also great advice not to get bogged down into a dogma too early (maybe even ever) as you can miss out on some amazing wines at all sorts of places on the spectrum by closing yourself off to them.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
Some 94s and some 95s. Then I tasted the wines. I've never tried to resell my wines and doubt that I have enough to make it worth while for auction houses. Mostly I serve it to people who like such wines. There are many and some of them are very nice human beings.originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg: I bought Monbousquet in the mid 90s on his advice and have been living with the error ever since.
How much did you buy? Can't get rid of it?
Yule, you could keep an eye out for a thread on the offline planner of parker's board (or start one yourself) when the weather is cooler that offers up a bordeaux theme that fits what you have and then go with one of your bottles and try it and many others from the same vintage (be sure the group coordinates who is bringing what so you don't duplicate) and see what you like.
Re the burgs - serafin has improved significantly so I think that, the gouges, bertheau, and d'angerville are all well worth cellaring - do the same with the amboise as the bordeaux. and go to macarthurs and get a bottle of the 05 clos salomon givry 1er cru to try. STay away from the 06 mosels, not worth the pennies just to try loewen. Rather, grab some 07 loosen wehlener sonnenuhr kabinett at macarthurs for $20 - a great drink that pleases now and will age.
and follow prof. loesberg's advice completely!
Re the burgs - serafin has improved significantly so I think that, the gouges, bertheau, and d'angerville are all well worth cellaring - do the same with the amboise as the bordeaux. and go to macarthurs and get a bottle of the 05 clos salomon givry 1er cru to try. STay away from the 06 mosels, not worth the pennies just to try loewen. Rather, grab some 07 loosen wehlener sonnenuhr kabinett at macarthurs for $20 - a great drink that pleases now and will age.
and follow prof. loesberg's advice completely!
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by MarkS:
Seriously though, I think Parker has a pretty good palate when it comes to Bordeaux since that is what he cut his teeth on, professionally and personally, especially if you avoid the super-spoofed properties (tend to avoid his picks of St Emillion, Pomerol, etc.), but then I've never been a big promoter of dogma for the sake of dogma.
I used to feel this way about Parker and the Southern Rhone. I first learned the names and the players from him and he knows what traditional versions of the wine taste like and he likes those versions. The problem is that Parker also likes oaked, polished weird versions and he doesn't distinguish between the two usually (although he can when he wants to), so his comments are less helpful than they used to be unless one is willing to engage in the forms of exegesis that neo-Platonists used to use on Homer. In the Rhone, I can still follow him to an extent based on my familiarity with the names and players. In Bordeaux, where I don't keep up, I abandoned him after I bought Monbousquet in the mid 90s on his advice and have been living with the error ever since.
I'll agree with both of you to the extent that Parker's strengths were always in Bdx and the S Rhone. I'll take issue with the Prof slightly, though, and say that I have little problem distinguishing the traditional wines from the Modernistas in his writing. What is needed is a small glossary of terms:
phrase translation
thin
John McIlwain
John McIlwain
I'll agree with both of you to the extent that Parker's strengths were always in Bdx and the S Rhone. I'll take issue with the Prof slightly, though, and say that I have little problem distinguishing the traditional wines from the Modernistas in his writing. What is needed is a small glossary of terms:
phrase translation
thin
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
originally posted by MLipton:
Semantic isomorphismoriginally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by MarkS:
Seriously though, I think Parker has a pretty good palate when it comes to Bordeaux since that is what he cut his teeth on, professionally and personally, especially if you avoid the super-spoofed properties (tend to avoid his picks of St Emillion, Pomerol, etc.), but then I've never been a big promoter of dogma for the sake of dogma.
I used to feel this way about Parker and the Southern Rhone. I first learned the names and the players from him and he knows what traditional versions of the wine taste like and he likes those versions. The problem is that Parker also likes oaked, polished weird versions and he doesn't distinguish between the two usually (although he can when he wants to), so his comments are less helpful than they used to be unless one is willing to engage in the forms of exegesis that neo-Platonists used to use on Homer. In the Rhone, I can still follow him to an extent based on my familiarity with the names and players. In Bordeaux, where I don't keep up, I abandoned him after I bought Monbousquet in the mid 90s on his advice and have been living with the error ever since.
I'll agree with both of you to the extent that Parker's strengths were always in Bdx and the S Rhone. I'll take issue with the Prof slightly, though, and say that I have little problem distinguishing the traditional wines from the Modernistas in his writing. What is needed is a small glossary of terms:
phrase translation
thin
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Cute but not really accurate. Parker's and his board's frenzy for Pegau has created a reaction to that wine as spoofed. In fact, it's not. Because Clos des Papes has gotten obscenely expensive and gets lots of points, I have no doubt that it no longer lives in the odor of sanctity. At least as far back as 01 (the last time I could really afford the wine, putting aside the 03, which I consider an anomaly and have only tasted once), though, it remained the wine that I remember Jacques Reynaud recommending to me in 1991. Charvin is getting much more buzz from Parker and his board and thus may become unloved by those who don't like Parker, but you won't find a winemaker who, on his own, talks more like people around here about wine. I predict Domaine Ferrand will be next to get enough buzz to ruin it for the rest of us.
If I didn't know the wines, I wouldn't be able to tell from his reviews that these wines really aren't like say St. Prefert or Mordoree.
Interesting. From what I recall of Parker's Pegau reviews he almost always uses the code word "traditional" in them, indicative to me of a lack of new oak or overextraction. I've never had pleasure of trying the da Capo so I cannot say whether it would be to my tastes or not and I have no way of parsing his verbiage to decide, so I agree with you up to that point. But, when I read the reviews of, say, Mordoree and compare them to what he writes about Charvin or Vieux Telegraphe, I have no problem finding the divide. With wines as big and ripe as CdP, I find that the divide is basically between overextracted/oaked and not, and that Parker's language is pretty transparent on that front. YMMV of course.
Mark Lipton
p.s. I agree with you about the pricing effect: it matters little whether these wines are made to my tastes or not since many of them have been priced out of reach for me.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
Here are 4 tasting notes for 07s, with grape varieties edited out as they would provide information for some. Can you identify which is old style, which is not (by my lights of course):
1) It exhibits a deep ruby/purple color as well as a sumptuous bouquet of black raspberries, kirsch liqueur, and subtle notions of underbrush and nori seaweed wrapper. Rayas-like in its ethereal richness, length, and texture with a sense of lightness despite its weight, this beauty possesses superb purity, equilibirium, texture, and elegance.
2)[It] is loaded. Although still primary and backward, it reveals an extraordinary depth of juicy blackberry and cassis fruit interwoven with notes of roasted herbs, meat juices, camphor and a touch of licorice. This wine boasts great depth, as superb texture, and a full-bodied richness nicely framed by high yet velvety tannins and fresh acidity.
3)The 2007 is full-bodied and powerful, with high tannins, high extract and tremendous color, stuffing, and richness. It is like drinking a liquified rare grilled steak mixed with ground pepper, roasted herbs, and spice. Juicy and pure, it explodes with aromas of Provence.
4)Half of it is aged in 600-litre demi-muids and the rest in cement tanks. The wine is delicious, showing the brilliant typicity of the appelllation in its notes of lavender, melted licorice, kirsch liqueur, tapenade and spice box. It is soft, round, full-bodied, very sexy, exceptionally pured, layered and just a brilliant Chateauneuf du Pape.
Since I am probably offending against copyright, I will not reveal names after guesses, so you should just guess traditional or modern (as neutral terms).
1) It exhibits a deep ruby/purple color as well as a sumptuous bouquet of black raspberries, kirsch liqueur, and subtle notions of underbrush and nori seaweed wrapper. Rayas-like in its ethereal richness, length, and texture with a sense of lightness despite its weight, this beauty possesses superb purity, equilibirium, texture, and elegance.
2)[It] is loaded. Although still primary and backward, it reveals an extraordinary depth of juicy blackberry and cassis fruit interwoven with notes of roasted herbs, meat juices, camphor and a touch of licorice. This wine boasts great depth, as superb texture, and a full-bodied richness nicely framed by high yet velvety tannins and fresh acidity.
3)The 2007 is full-bodied and powerful, with high tannins, high extract and tremendous color, stuffing, and richness. It is like drinking a liquified rare grilled steak mixed with ground pepper, roasted herbs, and spice. Juicy and pure, it explodes with aromas of Provence.
4)Half of it is aged in 600-litre demi-muids and the rest in cement tanks. The wine is delicious, showing the brilliant typicity of the appelllation in its notes of lavender, melted licorice, kirsch liqueur, tapenade and spice box. It is soft, round, full-bodied, very sexy, exceptionally pured, layered and just a brilliant Chateauneuf du Pape.
Since I am probably offending against copyright, I will not reveal names after guesses, so you should just guess traditional or modern (as neutral terms).
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Cute but not really accurate. Parker's and his board's frenzy for Pegau has created a reaction to that wine as spoofed. In fact, it's not. Because Clos des Papes has gotten obscenely expensive and gets lots of points, I have no doubt that it no longer lives in the odor of sanctity. At least as far back as 01 (the last time I could really afford the wine, putting aside the 03, which I consider an anomaly and have only tasted once), though, it remained the wine that I remember Jacques Reynaud recommending to me in 1991. Charvin is getting much more buzz from Parker and his board and thus may become unloved by those who don't like Parker, but you won't find a winemaker who, on his own, talks more like people around here about wine. I predict Domaine Ferrand will be next to get enough buzz to ruin it for the rest of us.
If I didn't know the wines, I wouldn't be able to tell from his reviews that these wines really aren't like say St. Prefert or Mordoree.
Interesting. From what I recall of Parker's Pegau reviews he almost always uses the code word "traditional" in them, indicative to me of a lack of new oak or overextraction. I've never had pleasure of trying the da Capo so I cannot say whether it would be to my tastes or not and I have no way of parsing his verbiage to decide, so I agree with you up to that point. But, when I read the reviews of, say, Mordoree and compare them to what he writes about Charvin or Vieux Telegraphe, I have no problem finding the divide. With wines as big and ripe as CdP, I find that the divide is basically between overextracted/oaked and not, and that Parker's language is pretty transparent on that front. YMMV of course.
Mark Lipton
p.s. I agree with you about the pricing effect: it matters little whether these wines are made to my tastes or not since many of them have been priced out of reach for me.
Have to agree with Mark L, here. Parker's language is pretty transparent soemtimes. I usually stay away from gobs...hedonistic...natural alcohol...pain grille...coffee...limited cuvee. Staying away from these has kept me in good stead.
And Mark, Charvin 2006 has had some pretty good pricing lately, anywhere from 29.99-40.00.