Salil Benegal
Salil Benegal
1. Old-style
2. Modern
3. Old-style
4. Modern (especially if he's calling it sexy)
How did I do?
2. Modern
3. Old-style
4. Modern (especially if he's calling it sexy)
How did I do?
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Storage Issues: What should I put in my wine cooler?
- Thread starter Yule Kim
- Start date
I don't think you are violating copyright, Jonathan. Your excerpts probably fall under fair use. If that is the only factor keeping you from divulging the estate names, you shouldn't worry about it.
And thanks everyone for the helpful advice. Looking forward to trying all the wines suggested so far. Espcially the Loosen since the price is right.
Just a quick aside, would a '06 Loewen Leiwener Klostergarten Kabinett for $20 be fair, or is 2006 really that bad it isn't worth drinking period? (as a reference, I kinda liked a 2005 Christoffel Urziger Wurzgarten Spatlese I had a couple of weeks ago, but felt it was a little flat and could use more acid. Is 2006 a low acid year or high acid year or just a bad year for Loewen?)
And thanks everyone for the helpful advice. Looking forward to trying all the wines suggested so far. Espcially the Loosen since the price is right.
Just a quick aside, would a '06 Loewen Leiwener Klostergarten Kabinett for $20 be fair, or is 2006 really that bad it isn't worth drinking period? (as a reference, I kinda liked a 2005 Christoffel Urziger Wurzgarten Spatlese I had a couple of weeks ago, but felt it was a little flat and could use more acid. Is 2006 a low acid year or high acid year or just a bad year for Loewen?)
Sharon Bowman
Sharon Bowman
Calgon, take me away.
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Here are 4 tasting notes for 07s, with grape varieties edited out as they would provide information for some. Can you identify which is old style, which is not (by my lights of course):
OK. Interesting test. Let's see how we can do. I'll pick out what I think are the keywords in these descriptions and then draw whatever conclusions I can.
1) It exhibits a deep ruby/purple color as well as a sumptuous bouquet of black raspberries, kirsch liqueur, and subtle notions of underbrush and nori seaweed wrapper. Rayas-like in its ethereal richness, length, and texture with a sense of lightness despite its weight, this beauty possesses superb purity, equilibirium, texture, and elegance.
This is indicative to me of a lighter weight traditionalist such as Charvin or possibly Marcoux (NB - I haven't tried their stuff in many years), probably using more Grenache in the blend, hence the comparison to Rayas.
2)[It] is loaded. Although still primary and backward, it reveals an extraordinary depth of juicy blackberry and cassis fruit interwoven with notes of roasted herbs, meat juices, camphor and a touch of licorice. This wine boasts great depth, as superb texture, and a full-bodied richness nicely framed by high yet velvety tannins and fresh acidity.
This is perhaps the most difficult to decipher. From the description, one might be tempted to proclaim it a modern producer until one sees the "fresh acidity" comment, but I've learned to ignore it when it's used in a complimentary sense -- only "high" or "shrill" acidity now rates a look from me. So, I'll call this a modern producer. I don't really have a guess as to producer, as I try to steer clear of the modernists whenever possible.
3)The 2007 is full-bodied and powerful, with high tannins, high extract and tremendous color, stuffing, and richness. It is like drinking a liquified rare grilled steak mixed with ground pepper, roasted herbs, and spice. Juicy and pure, it explodes with aromas of Provence.
This could be another misleading one. From the description, it's a big wine from a big vintage, but it doesn't have many of the signifiers that scream "modern" to me. Instead, it sounds like one of the bigger traditionalists (Pegau, Bonneau)
4)Half of it is aged in 600-litre demi-muids and the rest in cement tanks. The wine is delicious, showing the brilliant typicity of the appelllation in its notes of lavender, melted licorice, kirsch liqueur, tapenade and spice box. It is soft, round, full-bodied, very sexy, exceptionally pured, layered and just a brilliant Chateauneuf du Pape.
Here I think that you're purposefully trying to mislead by tossing in the description of its elevage, perhaps trying to put us in mind of VT, but your Jedi mind tricks won't work on me, Prof. The keywords soft and round make me think of a modernist (though how you get spoofulation in demi-muids and cement beats me: microbullage?) and "very sexy" concludes the deal. So, modernist is my final answer.
Mark Lipton
originally posted by SFJoe:
Those liquid steaks always scare me.
No NASA gig for you, old thing. It's the molten licorice that puts the fear of God in me.
Mark Lipton
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
Both Mark and Salil have guessed with 100% accuracy. Mark has in addition made good guesses as to producers. 1) is Charvin and 3) is Pegau. 2) is Mordoree and 4) is St. Prefert. I did not choose any of these with regard to Jedi mind games. I chose them with regard to who the producers were. I am pretty sure I can find traditionalists who would get the word sexy applied to them, though that tipped off both Mark and Salil. Licorice is a very traditional tasting note for CdP and occurs with Pegau. Tapenade is too. I bow to the catching of soft and round.
And I hereby bow to the exegetical abilities of both Salil and Mark. Parker notes always seem the same to me for the wines he likes and the wines he doesn't.
As a side issue, although St. Prefert does destem, their elevage otherwise looks extremely traditional, not merely the lack of oak but natural yeasts, and no other weird machines doing weird things I can tell. The wine, when I have tasted it, would confuse no one as to its style, though. So what else do they do to get that glossy, high toned effect?
And I hereby bow to the exegetical abilities of both Salil and Mark. Parker notes always seem the same to me for the wines he likes and the wines he doesn't.
As a side issue, although St. Prefert does destem, their elevage otherwise looks extremely traditional, not merely the lack of oak but natural yeasts, and no other weird machines doing weird things I can tell. The wine, when I have tasted it, would confuse no one as to its style, though. So what else do they do to get that glossy, high toned effect?
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Both Mark and Salil have guessed with 100% accuracy. Mark has in addition made good guesses as to producers. 1) is Charvin and 3) is Pegau. 2) is Mordoree and 4) is St. Prefert. I did not choose any of these with regard to Jedi mind games. I chose them with regard to who the producers were. I am pretty sure I can find traditionalists who would get the word sexy applied to them, though that tipped off both Mark and Salil. Licorice is a very traditional tasting note for CdP and occurs with Pegau. Tapenade is too. I bow to the catching of soft and round.
And I hereby bow to the exegetical abilities of both Salil and Mark. Parker notes always seem the same to me for the wines he likes and the wines he doesn't.
I'm actually quite surprised that we got them all right, and I hereby absolve you of all attempts at subterfuge. Regarding the identification of traditionalists, sad to say it's getting easier and easier as the roster dwindles. Also, since I've largely been priced out of the market, I don't have any experience with recent vintages of Clos des Papes, Vieux Donjon, Bosquet des Papes and Marcoux. So, if it's a traditionalist, I'm guessing Charvin, Pegau, Vieux Telegraphe, Beaucastel and Bonneau and they divide pretty easily along stylistic lines.
As a side issue, although St. Prefert does destem, their elevage otherwise looks extremely traditional, not merely the lack of oak but natural yeasts, and no other weird machines doing weird things I can tell. The wine, when I have tasted it, would confuse no one as to its style, though. So what else do they do to get that glossy, high toned effect?
Good question. I have no experience with this producer, but our tastes align well enough to guess that I'd find it modern, too ("glossy" is a great descriptor for those wines, so evocative) Microbullage would be one thing but I am at a loss to think of what else they could be doing.
Mark Lipton
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
How can you afford Bonneau, a wine whose prices are stratospheric (I've never yet tasted one) and not get VD, Bosquet des Papes--which one can still get for $25-30 if we're not talking special cuvees--even Marcoux? I need to find out where you get your Bonneaus.
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
How can you afford Bonneau, a wine whose prices are stratospheric (I've never yet tasted one) and not get VD, Bosquet des Papes--which one can still get for $25-30 if we're not talking special cuvees--even Marcoux? I need to find out where you get your Bonneaus.
Oh, I've never been able to afford Bonneau, but have been lucky enough to get to try a few through the generosity of others. The same luck doesn't hold with those other producers mentioned, however. These days, I try to buy a few VT, Beaucastel and Pegau, but with current pricing I may have to give that up, too. Grand Tinel and Bois de Boursan are the only affordable CdPs I have access to these days.
Mark Lipton
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
How can you afford Bonneau, a wine whose prices are stratospheric (I've never yet tasted one) and not get VD, Bosquet des Papes--which one can still get for $25-30 if we're not talking special cuvees--even Marcoux? I need to find out where you get your Bonneaus.
Oh, I've never been able to afford Bonneau, but have been lucky enough to get to try a few through the generosity of others. The same luck doesn't hold with those other producers mentioned, however. These days, I try to buy a few VT, Beaucastel and Pegau, but with current pricing I may have to give that up, too. Grand Tinel and Bois de Boursan are the only affordable CdPs I have access to these days.
Mark Lipton
Ferrand should still be available for around $40. If the buzz gets bigger, it won't be for long. I also like Usseglio's base cuvee. I like Mon Aieul too, but won't buy it. Clos Mt. Olivet's base cuvee one can still find for under $30. Same with Bosquet des Papes. But yes, it's getting harder and harder.
originally posted by Yule Kim:
And thanks everyone for the helpful advice. Looking forward to trying all the wines suggested so far. Espcially the Loosen since the price is right.
Just a quick aside, would a '06 Loewen Leiwener Klostergarten Kabinett for $20 be fair, or is 2006 really that bad it isn't worth drinking period? (as a reference, I kinda liked a 2005 Christoffel Urziger Wurzgarten Spatlese I had a couple of weeks ago, but felt it was a little flat and could use more acid. Is 2006 a low acid year or high acid year or just a bad year for Loewen?)
well try it next to the loosen and see what you think
I've not had the loewen - my alternative suggestion is based on the fact that generally speaking 07 has a preferable style - but try both and see what you think.
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
How can you afford Bonneau, a wine whose prices are stratospheric (I've never yet tasted one) and not get VD, Bosquet des Papes--which one can still get for $25-30 if we're not talking special cuvees--even Marcoux? I need to find out where you get your Bonneaus.
Oh, I've never been able to afford Bonneau, but have been lucky enough to get to try a few through the generosity of others. The same luck doesn't hold with those other producers mentioned, however. These days, I try to buy a few VT, Beaucastel and Pegau, but with current pricing I may have to give that up, too. Grand Tinel and Bois de Boursan are the only affordable CdPs I have access to these days.
Mark Lipton
No reason to buy any Chateauneuf at over $30 when there are such great procuers in places like St. Gervais and Cairranne. That's been my take for 8 or 9 years now.
Saina Nieminen
Saina Nieminen
originally posted by VLM:
No reason to buy any Chateauneuf at over $30 when there are such great procuers in places like St. Gervais and Cairranne. That's been my take for 8 or 9 years now.
Texier and who else?
originally posted by Brad L i l j e q u i s t:
Da Capo, by the way, is about the most traditional wine imaginable.
I haven't seen any mention of the multiple/luxury cuve aspect of this. The addition of a luxury cuve isn't traditional at all, even if it has been otherwise produced traditionally, right?
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
While there are great wines made in Cairanne and Vacqueyras, many of which alas do not arrive here, most of them really are for drinking while young and vibrant. Some can take and even benefit from as much as 10 years of aging, but they really won't replace decently aged CdPs.
On special cuvees, I'm not a fan. But Hommage a Jacques Perrin and Cuvee Papet have been around for 20 years and La Nerthe's, whatever it's called, for even longer. I believe Bonneau has been separating cuvees for longer. And if one includes Pignan and Rayas in this discussion, they are of long date as well.So while there's been an insane explosion of them, the idea itself isn't that recent.
In style, they vary. Many are absolutely traditional in winemaking and are differentiated by age of vines and/or vineyard location. Some are distinctly more spoofed than the basic level, Bois de Boursin's cuvee Felix being an example here as well as Usseglio's top cuvee, whose name I forget, deux freres or something.
The real argument against them, for me, is that they tend to make the base level cuvee a second wine both in content and in attention. Obviously that isn't the case for Pegau or Beaucastel, but I think it has been an effect for numbers of other domaines.
On special cuvees, I'm not a fan. But Hommage a Jacques Perrin and Cuvee Papet have been around for 20 years and La Nerthe's, whatever it's called, for even longer. I believe Bonneau has been separating cuvees for longer. And if one includes Pignan and Rayas in this discussion, they are of long date as well.So while there's been an insane explosion of them, the idea itself isn't that recent.
In style, they vary. Many are absolutely traditional in winemaking and are differentiated by age of vines and/or vineyard location. Some are distinctly more spoofed than the basic level, Bois de Boursin's cuvee Felix being an example here as well as Usseglio's top cuvee, whose name I forget, deux freres or something.
The real argument against them, for me, is that they tend to make the base level cuvee a second wine both in content and in attention. Obviously that isn't the case for Pegau or Beaucastel, but I think it has been an effect for numbers of other domaines.
Sharon Bowman
Sharon Bowman
I hate to be a stick in anyone's wheel (but should feel safe from lashings, hereabouts, as the stakes require some kind of microscope), but I don't feel Chteauneuf is for aging. Really, I see not the interest in such.* So the contention that Cairanne and Vacqueyras (lovely appellations that no one ever, ever talks about) are for younger drinking seems moot, to me. You can't drink a good C. or V. at under 5 years, so the difference between them and CdP is hairsplittin'.
As for luxury cuves, well.
Though if we'd like to light my wick to a rant: the Cuve du Papet!!!!!! and, one more, !
Actually, that cuve tends just to fall apart. But other "high-enders": Jonathan, as you are someone who actually knows these things, I'd like to hear your take on a case-by-case.
*On rereading, I realize the syntax of that sentence was French. But at least y'all 'll understand. I refer one and all to George Orwell's Down and Out in Paris and London for a brilliant calque of French-speak into English prose.
As for luxury cuves, well.
Though if we'd like to light my wick to a rant: the Cuve du Papet!!!!!! and, one more, !
Actually, that cuve tends just to fall apart. But other "high-enders": Jonathan, as you are someone who actually knows these things, I'd like to hear your take on a case-by-case.
*On rereading, I realize the syntax of that sentence was French. But at least y'all 'll understand. I refer one and all to George Orwell's Down and Out in Paris and London for a brilliant calque of French-speak into English prose.