Levi Dalton
Levi Dalton
What kind of obscure wine dinner will I pull together next?
Perhaps Barbera that doesn't suck would be the appropriate rara avis.
Perhaps Barbera that doesn't suck would be the appropriate rara avis.
What is going on Thursday evening, Oct. 29th?
- Thread starter Levi Dalton
- Start date
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Well, it doesn't have to be obscure wines. (Not that Italy lacks for obscure grape varieties.) I am happy to drink wine of one region and learn a bit thereof.
How many wines of Valle d'Aoste (e.g.) can you source?
How many wines of Valle d'Aoste (e.g.) can you source?
Levi Dalton
Levi Dalton
Thank you also to Joe Salamone.
scottreiner
scott reiner
thanks to everyone. even though no one ever wants to sit with me, i love the dinners...
levi, you rule!
Levi Dalton
Levi Dalton
Ahh, shucks.
Thanks guys.
Now would somebody of pedantic bent please chime in and be annoying, so we can keep things even keel around here?
Who is it going to be?
Thanks guys.
Now would somebody of pedantic bent please chime in and be annoying, so we can keep things even keel around here?
Who is it going to be?
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks?
Most people just use blog software.
Levi Dalton
Levi Dalton
I spent a fair amount of time speaking with one of the Vodopivec brothers this afternoon. It was an enlightening listen, despite language obstructions.
Some of the take aways...
The Vodopivecs run a horticultural concern based around flowers. That is actually their main business interest.
As far the wines were concerned, they had experimented with Spanish Anfora, but had been unhappy with the results. They had also been unhappy with the results of skin-contact, long maceration wines made from white grapes macerated in wood. There had been a problem with the equilibrium of the wines, which I took to understand as an unbalance of wood tannins.
The Vodopivecs had decided to turn to Georgian Anfora. There are apparently NO books in Italian indicating how to make wine in Anfora. Numerous searches at the library only confirming this for them. So trips to Georgia were required. I asked if they spoke the Georgian tongue, "of course, my surname is Vodopivec" was the quite apt response. And so it was that Mr. Vodopivec visited the Caucasus. The Caucasus are Anfora World Headquarters, apparently. Although the southern Caucasus are active for winemaking, I was given to understand that they don't make much Anfora wine down there. So I guess we are talking about the Northern Caucasus. I asked Mr. Vodopivec if he had visited the wineries in the region as a stagiare or a tourist. He responded that there was no such thing as a tourist for this region. Score another point for Mr. Vodopivec and the True That Team. Apparently, much drinking is involved in the patriarchal Georgian winemaking family. Much drinking. We are talking about 2-3 litres a day of wine per person. Vandergrift numbers. This was a major obstacle for Mr. Vodopivec. How not to appear impolite, and still drink the glass empty at each (numerous) toast? Mr. Vodopivec seems to have survived, although the memory still makes him shake his head in disbelief of that fact. The folks in Georgia drink the wine, he said. Sometimes okay, sometimes not okay wine, but they drink the wine. A lot of wine. And then he said it was like 250 years ago over there. By which I think he meant more like 250 years ago in Carso, rather than 250 years ago in NYC. But who knows.
There are apparently 7 or 8 producers of Anfora. The actual Anfora vessels. You order one year ahead of the date of completion for your Anfora purchase. I'd tell you who to order from, but the name is only in cyrillic. So you order your anfora, you wait a year, and then you must pick it up. Which is a problem, because the local mafia types like to shake down the foreigners at gun point, as they did Mr. Vodopivec, when they took his truck from him. There was a bit about paying off mafia types and then having only so many hours to load up the truck in the middle of a forest before high tailing it out of Dodge City. Fraught with danger and genuine concern for safety seemed to be major themes of the retelling at this particular point of the story.
Mr. Vodopivec did make it back to Carso with his Anfora intact, of course. Which means those Anfora have to be cleaned, apparently quite the chore, as it must be done entirely by hand, using only water. And the issue of burial. Mr. Vodopivec is a staunch supporter of Anfora burial, not giving any credence at all to Anfora left above ground. Apparently, both the temperature control and the life forces are thrown all out of whack by leaving the wine in anfora above ground.
Currently Mr. Vodopivec is macerating his wine for 6 months in anfora. He hopes to extend that period to 1 year. But there are concerns about reduction. Apparently, Vitovska can get mighty reductive if you try to macerate with the skins for two years or so.
As a side note, there is no Solo / MM wine being made at Vodopivec at the moment, as it has been produced in the past. They may make this reserve wine again in the future, however.
How many times might a wine caretaker use an anfora to produce wine, you have perhaps wondered? 300 years seems to be a realistic response, as Mr. Vodopivec has tasted wine out of a 300 year old anfora located in Georgia.
Also to note, the Church was a big influence in keeping anfora winemaking current in Georgia.
Some answers I have perhaps forgotten, and will remember later. Some questions I forgot to ask.
Hope you find it all as interesting as I did.
Some of the take aways...
The Vodopivecs run a horticultural concern based around flowers. That is actually their main business interest.
As far the wines were concerned, they had experimented with Spanish Anfora, but had been unhappy with the results. They had also been unhappy with the results of skin-contact, long maceration wines made from white grapes macerated in wood. There had been a problem with the equilibrium of the wines, which I took to understand as an unbalance of wood tannins.
The Vodopivecs had decided to turn to Georgian Anfora. There are apparently NO books in Italian indicating how to make wine in Anfora. Numerous searches at the library only confirming this for them. So trips to Georgia were required. I asked if they spoke the Georgian tongue, "of course, my surname is Vodopivec" was the quite apt response. And so it was that Mr. Vodopivec visited the Caucasus. The Caucasus are Anfora World Headquarters, apparently. Although the southern Caucasus are active for winemaking, I was given to understand that they don't make much Anfora wine down there. So I guess we are talking about the Northern Caucasus. I asked Mr. Vodopivec if he had visited the wineries in the region as a stagiare or a tourist. He responded that there was no such thing as a tourist for this region. Score another point for Mr. Vodopivec and the True That Team. Apparently, much drinking is involved in the patriarchal Georgian winemaking family. Much drinking. We are talking about 2-3 litres a day of wine per person. Vandergrift numbers. This was a major obstacle for Mr. Vodopivec. How not to appear impolite, and still drink the glass empty at each (numerous) toast? Mr. Vodopivec seems to have survived, although the memory still makes him shake his head in disbelief of that fact. The folks in Georgia drink the wine, he said. Sometimes okay, sometimes not okay wine, but they drink the wine. A lot of wine. And then he said it was like 250 years ago over there. By which I think he meant more like 250 years ago in Carso, rather than 250 years ago in NYC. But who knows.
There are apparently 7 or 8 producers of Anfora. The actual Anfora vessels. You order one year ahead of the date of completion for your Anfora purchase. I'd tell you who to order from, but the name is only in cyrillic. So you order your anfora, you wait a year, and then you must pick it up. Which is a problem, because the local mafia types like to shake down the foreigners at gun point, as they did Mr. Vodopivec, when they took his truck from him. There was a bit about paying off mafia types and then having only so many hours to load up the truck in the middle of a forest before high tailing it out of Dodge City. Fraught with danger and genuine concern for safety seemed to be major themes of the retelling at this particular point of the story.
Mr. Vodopivec did make it back to Carso with his Anfora intact, of course. Which means those Anfora have to be cleaned, apparently quite the chore, as it must be done entirely by hand, using only water. And the issue of burial. Mr. Vodopivec is a staunch supporter of Anfora burial, not giving any credence at all to Anfora left above ground. Apparently, both the temperature control and the life forces are thrown all out of whack by leaving the wine in anfora above ground.
Currently Mr. Vodopivec is macerating his wine for 6 months in anfora. He hopes to extend that period to 1 year. But there are concerns about reduction. Apparently, Vitovska can get mighty reductive if you try to macerate with the skins for two years or so.
As a side note, there is no Solo / MM wine being made at Vodopivec at the moment, as it has been produced in the past. They may make this reserve wine again in the future, however.
How many times might a wine caretaker use an anfora to produce wine, you have perhaps wondered? 300 years seems to be a realistic response, as Mr. Vodopivec has tasted wine out of a 300 year old anfora located in Georgia.
Also to note, the Church was a big influence in keeping anfora winemaking current in Georgia.
Some answers I have perhaps forgotten, and will remember later. Some questions I forgot to ask.
Hope you find it all as interesting as I did.
scottreiner
scott reiner
bravo!
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
To begin, order a Georgian greenhouse a year ahead of time...
Levi,
Thanks a lot for all the details. Now I have to try something.
BTW when reading all this about georgian mythic litterature about amphoras, one could understand that it is a unique feature from that place.
What about Spain and all these "vinos de tinajas"?
Just wondering.
Eric
Thanks a lot for all the details. Now I have to try something.
BTW when reading all this about georgian mythic litterature about amphoras, one could understand that it is a unique feature from that place.
What about Spain and all these "vinos de tinajas"?
Just wondering.
Eric
Scott Kraft
Scott Kraft
I just hope the mafia don't put you in Anfora, Brzme!
Levi Dalton
Levi Dalton
Hello, Eric.
Regarding the Spanish use of anfora, I suspect that VS could be of much more help by way of details than myself.
But I do know that while Gravner and Vodopivec use anfora sourced from Georgia, COS for instance uses anfora sourced from Crete. So not everyone uses Georgian clay. But I suspect that the geographic proximity of Friuli to Georgia lends itself to a circumstance where the later is the dominate source amongst those in Carso and the Collio.
Whereas for yourself, of course Spain is much closer.
Will we next hear of your adventures sourcing Spanish anfora?