Burgundy, Ruwer, NE Italy

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Is it fair to say that "archetypal" highlights the original way in which thing X differed from the things that came before it, while "exemplar" gives the best current example of thing X (in all its Xness)?
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You need to change the "before" to "after." Otherwise, though that is a rather derridean take on the definition of archetype, yes. With regard to "example," again, yes, except that according to most definitions, an example need not be an ideal example, just one of a group, whereas an exemplar needs to be an ideal example. Still, since the concept of example does, per force, contain notions of ideality (if it is an anomalous member of a group, it can't be an example), this may be a distinction without a difference.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Is it fair to say that "archetypal" highlights the original way in which thing X differed from the things that came before it...
Click to expand...

You need to change the "before" to "after."...
Click to expand...
But, I'm not interested in how The Archetypal Thing X differs from all the other Thing Xes; I'm interested in how The Archetypal Thing X riffed Thing Y and totally upended my ideas about Thing Z... which came before.
 
In order to add to the etymological fun:

The OED Definition of "archetype"

1. The original pattern or model from which copies are made; a prototype.

[1599 THYNNE Animadv. 42 The originall or fyrste archetypum of any thinge.] 1605 BACON Adv. Learn. I. 27 Let vs seeke the dignitie of knowledge in the Arch-tipe or first plat-forme, which is in the attributes and acts of God. 1690 LOCKE Hum. Underst. II. xxx. (1695) 205 By real Ideas, I mean such as have a Foundation in Nature; such as have a Conformity..with their Archetypes. 1795 MASON Ch. Music i. 54 There was little if any Music printed..that could serve as an Architype. 1849 MACAULAY Hist. Eng. I. 17 The House of Commons, the archetype of all the representative assemblies which now meet. 1875 SCRIVENER Lect. Gk. Test. 9 These [manuscripts] were made the archetypes of a host of others.

The OED Definition of "exemplar"

1. A person or thing which serves as a model for imitation; an example. Formerly also, {dag}a pattern for work: cf. SAMPLER.

1432-50 tr. Higden (Rolls) I. 5 In this tyme..thexemplares of acciones spectable scholde not be patent. 1490 CAXTON Eneydos xi. (1890) 41 [Nature] hathe produced hym [Aeneas] for to make one fayer chief werke to thexemplayre of alle other. 1530 PALSGR. 157 Vne exemple, an exemplar for a woman to worke by. 1549 LATIMER Serm. bef. Edw. VI (Arb.) 109 Christ is the..patrone and the exemplar, that all preachers oughte to folowe. 1694 POMFRET Poems, Death Q. Mary 128 Him for her high exemplar she design'd. 1744 Epitaph in Brand Hist. Newcastle (1789) I. 676 His Master's presence will reward..his virtues by a more intimate converse with the great Exemplar. 1793 T. MAURICE Ind. Antiq. (1806) I. 105 It is impossible for the artist to deviate from the exemplar before him. 1875 JOWETT Plato (ed. 2) V. 25 The Republic is..the pattern of all other states and the exemplar of human life.

But also

2. The model, pattern, or original after which something is made; an archetype whether real or ideal.

3. An instance, example; a parallel instance, a parallel.

4. A typical instance; a type, specimen (of a class); a typical embodiment or personification (of a quality, system, etc.).
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Is it fair to say that "archetypal" highlights the original way in which thing X differed from the things that came before it...
Click to expand...

You need to change the "before" to "after."...
Click to expand...
But, I'm not interested in how The Archetypal Thing X differs from all the other Thing Xes; I'm interested in how The Archetypal Thing X riffed Thing Y and totally upended my ideas about Thing Z... which came before.
Click to expand...

This is as clear an example of Nietzschean thinking about cause and effect as I've seen. You have the makings of an exemplary poststructuralist. You are too belated, however, to be an archetypal one.
 
originally posted by Yule Kim:
In order to add to the etymological fun:

The OED Definition of "archetype"

1. The original pattern or model from which copies are made; a prototype.

[1599 THYNNE Animadv. 42 The originall or fyrste archetypum of any thinge.] 1605 BACON Adv. Learn. I. 27 Let vs seeke the dignitie of knowledge in the Arch-tipe or first plat-forme, which is in the attributes and acts of God. 1690 LOCKE Hum. Underst. II. xxx. (1695) 205 By real Ideas, I mean such as have a Foundation in Nature; such as have a Conformity..with their Archetypes. 1795 MASON Ch. Music i. 54 There was little if any Music printed..that could serve as an Architype. 1849 MACAULAY Hist. Eng. I. 17 The House of Commons, the archetype of all the representative assemblies which now meet. 1875 SCRIVENER Lect. Gk. Test. 9 These [manuscripts] were made the archetypes of a host of others.

The OED Definition of "exemplar"

1. A person or thing which serves as a model for imitation; an example. Formerly also, {dag}a pattern for work: cf. SAMPLER.

1432-50 tr. Higden (Rolls) I. 5 In this tyme..thexemplares of acciones spectable scholde not be patent. 1490 CAXTON Eneydos xi. (1890) 41 [Nature] hathe produced hym [Aeneas] for to make one fayer chief werke to thexemplayre of alle other. 1530 PALSGR. 157 Vne exemple, an exemplar for a woman to worke by. 1549 LATIMER Serm. bef. Edw. VI (Arb.) 109 Christ is the..patrone and the exemplar, that all preachers oughte to folowe. 1694 POMFRET Poems, Death Q. Mary 128 Him for her high exemplar she design'd. 1744 Epitaph in Brand Hist. Newcastle (1789) I. 676 His Master's presence will reward..his virtues by a more intimate converse with the great Exemplar. 1793 T. MAURICE Ind. Antiq. (1806) I. 105 It is impossible for the artist to deviate from the exemplar before him. 1875 JOWETT Plato (ed. 2) V. 25 The Republic is..the pattern of all other states and the exemplar of human life.

But also

2. The model, pattern, or original after which something is made; an archetype whether real or ideal.

3. An instance, example; a parallel instance, a parallel.

4. A typical instance; a type, specimen (of a class); a typical embodiment or personification (of a quality, system, etc.).
Click to expand...

Isn't this what I said?
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by Yule Kim:
In order to add to the etymological fun:

The OED Definition of "archetype"

1. The original pattern or model from which copies are made; a prototype.

[1599 THYNNE Animadv. 42 The originall or fyrste archetypum of any thinge.] 1605 BACON Adv. Learn. I. 27 Let vs seeke the dignitie of knowledge in the Arch-tipe or first plat-forme, which is in the attributes and acts of God. 1690 LOCKE Hum. Underst. II. xxx. (1695) 205 By real Ideas, I mean such as have a Foundation in Nature; such as have a Conformity..with their Archetypes. 1795 MASON Ch. Music i. 54 There was little if any Music printed..that could serve as an Architype. 1849 MACAULAY Hist. Eng. I. 17 The House of Commons, the archetype of all the representative assemblies which now meet. 1875 SCRIVENER Lect. Gk. Test. 9 These [manuscripts] were made the archetypes of a host of others.

The OED Definition of "exemplar"

1. A person or thing which serves as a model for imitation; an example. Formerly also, {dag}a pattern for work: cf. SAMPLER.

1432-50 tr. Higden (Rolls) I. 5 In this tyme..thexemplares of acciones spectable scholde not be patent. 1490 CAXTON Eneydos xi. (1890) 41 [Nature] hathe produced hym [Aeneas] for to make one fayer chief werke to thexemplayre of alle other. 1530 PALSGR. 157 Vne exemple, an exemplar for a woman to worke by. 1549 LATIMER Serm. bef. Edw. VI (Arb.) 109 Christ is the..patrone and the exemplar, that all preachers oughte to folowe. 1694 POMFRET Poems, Death Q. Mary 128 Him for her high exemplar she design'd. 1744 Epitaph in Brand Hist. Newcastle (1789) I. 676 His Master's presence will reward..his virtues by a more intimate converse with the great Exemplar. 1793 T. MAURICE Ind. Antiq. (1806) I. 105 It is impossible for the artist to deviate from the exemplar before him. 1875 JOWETT Plato (ed. 2) V. 25 The Republic is..the pattern of all other states and the exemplar of human life.

But also

2. The model, pattern, or original after which something is made; an archetype whether real or ideal.

3. An instance, example; a parallel instance, a parallel.

4. A typical instance; a type, specimen (of a class); a typical embodiment or personification (of a quality, system, etc.).
Click to expand...

Isn't this what I said?
Click to expand...

Yes. But I thought some archaic spelling and choice quotations from Caxton and Thynne would help illuminate your words.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
This is as clear an example of Nietzschean thinking about cause and effect as I've seen. You have the makings of an exemplary poststructuralist. You are too belated, however, to be an archetypal one.
Click to expand...
Am I happy about this? (Or is Ryle no longer reading this thread?)

Is Nietzsche the new Kant?

Which authors of poststructuralist thought can I read (so that I may continue the time-honored trend of only reading works with which I already fundamentally agree)?
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
I wonder if someday WD will be sued by the writers for Monty Python.
Best, Jim
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Much like spamshimi, spam sticks, bacon and spam, and smoked salmon smothered in spam, spam pairs well with 1998 Jadot Spambolle Musigny Les Amourspam, 1996 Maxispamin Grnspamser Riesling Abtspam Spmlese, and 2001 Mayr-Nusser Sdtiroler Lagrein Riserva poured over more spam.

{Monty Python Copywritable Material Begins}

Wife: Have you got anything without spam?

Waitress: Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.

Wife: I don't want ANY spam!

Man: Why can't she have egg bacon spam and sausage?

Wife: THAT'S got spam in it!

Man: Hasn't got as much spam in it as spam egg sausage and spam, has it?

Vikings: Spam spam spam spam... (Crescendo through next few lines...)

{Monty Python Copywritable Material Ends}

Indeed, "spam" is the exemplar of spam (but it is arguable whether it is spam's archetype. Some say it is ham.).
 
originally posted by Steven Spielmann:
This thread has inspired me to start a new lifestyle magazine - "Pork Aficionado."
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For the inaugural issue you could get Arnold Schwartzeneggar to do a cover shot smiling with a small Vietnamese potbelly tucked into the corner of his mouth.

originally posted by Florida Jim:
I wonder if someday WD will be sued by the writers for Monty Python.
Click to expand...

Nobody's even mentioned the pork-o-matic yet.
 
geez, I'm glad I only spend most of my day analyzing the Internal Revenue Code and actuarial materials, both as applied to insurance companies, and then try to write creative arguments justifying tax positions under statutes that arguably didn't anticipate the actuarial changes imposed by regulators - this BB stuff is too complicated for my little mind (although I knew before reading this thread what constitutes an archetype and an exemplar, having wandered through Jonathan's dept (before Jonathan was there) in my college days).
 
Exemplar? Wasn't that some kind of knight?
Archetype? That's a particluar king of doorway, right?
Creative arguments regarding statutes that arguably don't anticipate? Ah yes, another tautology.
Great shit!
Best, Jim
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by Yule Kim:
In order to add to the etymological fun:

The OED Definition of "archetype"

...
Click to expand...

Isn't this what I said?
Click to expand...

Teach a man the definition of archetype and he knows the meaning of one word. Teach a man how to look up the definition of archeype and he can learn the meanings of all words.
 
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