Terroir story - oh my...

originally posted by Carl Steefel:
originally posted by Mark Davis:
originally posted by VS:
Why would geologists know about the interaction between soil, roots, vines and grapes? This is a subject for microbiologists.

I bet no one in that meeting in Portland had ever heard about Claude Bourguignon...
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Insightful point. I agree...
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Why is it a subject only for microbiologists? Microbiology is only one of the processes at work here, and in fact, the microbes need chemical components to provide energy, so it is linked back to the chemical (and hydrological) environment as well.
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and what of the science of the processes involved on the tasting end of things (whatever that's called)?
 
Not sure if this is tongue in cheek?
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It was tongue-in-cheek.

Of course, there are also those for whom "terroir is marketing bullshit" is marketing bullshit, which complicates things.
 
originally posted by Thor:
Not sure if this is tongue in cheek?
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It was tongue-in-cheek.

Of course, there are also those for whom "terroir is marketing bullshit" is marketing bullshit, which complicates things.
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When I was a lad, we called this "climbing the abstraction ladder." It gives me nosebleeds. Figuratively speaking, of course.
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
originally posted by Carl Steefel:
originally posted by Mark Davis:
originally posted by VS:
Why would geologists know about the interaction between soil, roots, vines and grapes? This is a subject for microbiologists.

I bet no one in that meeting in Portland had ever heard about Claude Bourguignon...
Click to expand...

Insightful point. I agree...
Click to expand...
Why is it a subject only for microbiologists? Microbiology is only one of the processes at work here, and in fact, the microbes need chemical components to provide energy, so it is linked back to the chemical (and hydrological) environment as well.
Click to expand...

and what of the science of the processes involved on the tasting end of things (whatever that's called)?
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Yes, I agree that is interesting science. A difficult subject considering that very low levels of certain compounds can have such a marked effect. I mean, look at the taint (OK, a taint, but still...) TCA, where PPT levels can be detected. This at the level of close to the best $200,000 or so gas chromatograph... This is why I laugh when I see these studies looking at major element chemistry, as if that said much of anything about terroir...
 
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by The Wine Mule:
Jamie Goode, in "The Science of Wine," which was published in 2005, predicted then that there would be a role for microbiology in the explanation of terroir. He quotes Dr. Martin Bradley of Nottingham University:

"A large amount of work is underway to understand the molecular biology of grapes, and scientists are identifying genes that influence wine flavor. As more grape molecular biology is known, the easier it will be to understand mechanisms of terroir on wine taste."

I'm going to make an assumption that Bourguignon is one of those performing the "large amount of work" that Bradley refers to.
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Jamie may well have made such a prediction (I haven't read his book yet), but the quote you produce does nothing to support that claim. The molecular biology of grapes has nothing to do with the soil ecology of vineyards.
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You're right, but you don't have to edit much to recast that argument into something that makes sense. Terroir is expressed through the molecular biology and biochemistry of grapes (RNA microarrays are so much easier to run than new enzyme assays that everyone's looking under that particular lamppost these days). The interaction of the vine with its environment and with, for instance, its mycorrhizal partners, are all controlled the same way, and expressed or not in the fruit. It's almost a tautology, but if they are touting absurdly well known things (little bits of slate are not to be found in your Graacher Domprobst), they can have this one too.
 
originally posted by Mark Davis:
Terroir story - oh my...By Associated Press

PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) -- Geologists say wine critics may be stretching things a bit when they talk about the soil giving a vintage a distinct flavor.
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You left out the silliest part of the article, the title. It say "Scientists debunk terroir..." and then much of the rest of the article more or less supports the notion that terroir is real. If you subscribe to the mainstream definition of terroir as "the effect of geology, soil, topography and microclimate on grape and wine flavor." Rather than the notion that the flavor of the dirt migrates into the grape and hence the wine. Which probably derives from someone's garbled mistranslation of "gout de terroir" as "tasting of the dirt". Which in turn would explain why so many people think of brett, old barrels, musty aromas or other non-fruity flavors as "terroir".
 
I'm surprised that no one mentions massal selection as a primary source of terroir expression - and probably it's most obvious. Of course it takes a long time. But it's the terroir that shapes the vines and grapes over years - no? It's why clones lack terroir. They're foreign. Not of the place. Out of place. And often fighting the place where they grow. Massal is by nature chosen over generations of grape because it fits the place. Expresses the place best. Genetically. Seems to happen all over Europe.
 
on terroir:

It is hard to distinguish because it is everywhere, a part of everything. If it were more distinct (that is to say, less all encompassing), it would be easier to distinguish.

It is only at the fault lines of terroir that it can be easily judged.
 
originally posted by slaton:
originally posted by Mark Davis:
"I am not saying that chemistry and geology have no effect on the wine. It may have effects that we don't understand," said geologist Alex Maltman.
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originally posted by Karen Goetz:
There exists a very big difference between that which is not yet known and that which is proven to be untrue.
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As we know,
There are known knowns,
There are things we know we know.

We also know
There are known unknowns.

That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.

But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we dont know we dont know.
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Oh this makes me so nostalgic. Doonesbury was better in those days. Ok, most everything else wasn't, but Doonesbury was. Of course, Doonesbury was even better during Watergate. I miss that too.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
on terroir:

It is hard to distinguish because it is everywhere, a part of everything. If it were more distinct (that is to say, less all encompassing), it would be easier to distinguish.

It is only at the fault lines of terroir that it can be easily judged.
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Yes, a tricky business since you change soil type and you normally chose exposure etc.

I posted a while back on one or more of the other boards the question of where terroir could be evaluated (no responses, too busy I guess considering the latest price of Chambertin and Musigny).

One suggestion I had, although subtle, was Chablis, where differences in the clay to oyster shell to compact limestone fractions exist with nearly the same exposure. Even here, however, it is difficult to separate out the drainage behavior of the soil. It is all Kimmeridgian, but there are differences nontheless...

Another region that suggests itself (after my recent trip) is Sancerre, where one finds Sauvignon Blanc on both Kimmeridgian and Silex soils. Not sure if SB is the best varietal to show terroir however...
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
on terroir:

It is hard to distinguish because it is everywhere, a part of everything. If it were more distinct (that is to say, less all encompassing), it would be easier to distinguish.
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Kinda like God, but then there are those who don't believe that can exist either.

Damn scientists always trying to debunk things!
 
originally posted by Carl Steefel:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
on terroir:

It is hard to distinguish because it is everywhere, a part of everything. If it were more distinct (that is to say, less all encompassing), it would be easier to distinguish.

It is only at the fault lines of terroir that it can be easily judged.
Click to expand...
Yes, a tricky business since you change soil type and you normally chose exposure etc...

Another region that suggests itself (after my recent trip) is Sancerre, where one finds Sauvignon Blanc on both Kimmeridgian and Silex soils. Not sure if SB is the best varietal to show terroir
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It's true that it is very hard to control all the variables, but there have been some experiments that come very close to that, and from what I have read and experienced they demonstrate that terroir based on soil and topographic differences is real. Marcus Bokisch, who grows some nice Albarino and Tempranillo in Lodi, demonstrated it last year at a conference on Iberian varieties. Albarino was grown in two different vineyards - same clone, same trellising, same aspect, harvested at very close to the same pH, acid and alcohol numbers, vinified the same way. Only major difference was the soil types, and the wines were quite different, easy to tell apart.

I think the reason that SB is a difficult vehicle for terroir is that it is so sensitive to pruning, trellising and canopy management. I've tasted experiments where vines in the same vineyard, same clone-age-rootstock-etc., were pruned two different ways and the flavor difference was startling.
 
originally posted by MarkS:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
on terroir:

It is hard to distinguish because it is everywhere, a part of everything. If it were more distinct (that is to say, less all encompassing), it would be easier to distinguish.
Click to expand...

Kinda like God, but then there are those who don't believe that can exist either.
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Terroir is god! And it chose Wine Disorder to reveal itself!
 
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):


You left out the silliest part of the article, the title. It say "Scientists debunk terroir..." and then much of the rest of the article more or less supports the notion that terroir is real. If you subscribe to the mainstream definition of terroir as "the effect of geology, soil, topography and microclimate on grape and wine flavor." Rather than the notion that the flavor of the dirt migrates into the grape and hence the wine. Which probably derives from someone's garbled mistranslation of "gout de terroir" as "tasting of the dirt". Which in turn would explain why so many people think of brett, old barrels, musty aromas or other non-fruity flavors as "terroir".
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The old straw man argument. Can't beat it.
 
As promised, I have tried, with heroic efforts at translation by my wife, to get the gist of Claude Bourguignon's comments, which appear in the link first posted by VS. As best I can determine, and I can practically guarantee some of this is incorrect, and I urge any Francophones to read him and correct me, Bourguignon's research consists of showing the role that microbes play in the transmission of nutrients from clay to vine. The role of microbes is to make the metal and salt nutrients that exist in clay soluable and thus available to the vine. He says this is an extremely complicated process. He compares layers of soil to layers of skin, and talks about crowds of microbes migrating between upper and lower layers. My translator and I got a bit lost trying to follow his imagery.

He also has some very dire comments about how microbe-rich soil is dying everywhere.

For anyone's convenience, here's the link again. You have to scroll up a bit to begin reading. It's not a paper, it's an interview.

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terreaterre.ww7.be

And please: I am not well-grounded in geology, chemistry, or microbiology. Or French! I'm just a curious schnook trying to understand something about terroir.
 
varietal...
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Eek!!! Thor alert, Thor alert
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You know, fuck it. It was 77 today with an endless expanse of blue sky, from the tippy-top of the weather station at Jare above Iroulguy to the farthest horizon of the Atlantic from our apartment in Biarritz. Tomorrow, I'll fight the fight against this pernicious error again. But today, I'm enjoying my Hours "Urolat" 2007 Juranon, having just watched the sun set over the last surfers paddling through said Atlantic just below the window, and looking forward to (among other things) a cpe the size of my head* lathered in butter. As you can see, the required dudgeon is difficult to dredge, just now.

Anyway, yeah. "Variety."

* (Yes, yes, Larry, I know.)
 
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