Nossiter's "Liquid Memory"

[Tom Blach]

VS, there is really not much between us,just a definition. I agree with nearly everything you say, and I certainly need to revisit properly.
Ian, I see your point, but even the Thai word Gaeng, which represents a particularly important branch of the cuisine, derives from the 7th century Chinese Keng, not to mention the other techniques involved, which are all Chinese in origin-though it's certainly true that almost unchanged Chinese dishes exist everywhere.

 

[Tom Blach]

As I think more about it it occurs to me that the the Thai kitchen is a sort of repository of first millenium ad chinese methods-so many that were current then are still so in Thailand.

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

This is different from what I learned, but my learning is anecdotal, not scholarly, and has a lot to do with having lived in Thailand for three years.

Not to sound pompous, but what are your sources, in a nutshell? I don't mind bettering my education (in my copious free time).

 

[Doug Padgett]

I just somehow lost the post I was working up on this. Crap. Anyway, I don't speak Thai, but I do love these sorts of debates--the kind that no one could possibly win. Only makes it more fun to have, I think.

Indian and Chinese influences in Thai (or Viet or other SE Asian) cuisine are real, but it seems to me they're laid out in complex ways, with waves coming in over a very long history, through regions and realms that defy current boundaries. Just as with religion (where I work) or language.

I'm personally more attuned to hear (and taste) the Chinese echoes in Thai food, in for instance, something like chok, congee--chao in Vietnamese, zhou in Mandarin and probably something like chok in the overseas Chinese dialect spoken in Thailand. But congee is a dish served all over Asia, including India. I have no idea where it came to Thailand from (Guangdong, likely), but the point remains--antecedents are multiple and tangled.

I'd be interested to hear more about 1st cent Chinese foodways and Ian's discoveries in Thailand.

By the way, Re: gaeng: here's the one ref. I found without hitting the university library.

 

[Yixin]

Teochew is probably the most common dialect in urban Thailand, and it's close to "chok", altough their version of congee is often called "Teochew mui", for mi, or rice.

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

Thanks for the gaeng reference, Doug. The version of Thai history I've absorbed is that it's had a distinct identity and character through the ages, due to which, in part, it's been an effective assimilator of influences from other cultures. In this version, a key word is 'influence;' with the idea that Thai culture may have been modified by, say Chinese, but not ultimately derived from it. There are some interesting archaeological digs in the north of Thailand that provide evidence of a very old indigenous culture.

I lived in four different provinces, Yixin, though never in Krung Thep proper. In central dialect and upcountry, we always called congee kow dom, or rice soup (kow is the Thai word for rice, though mi may be, as you say, the word in one of the dialects.) I ate a lot of this; during overnight bus trips to or from Bangkok, we would invariably stop at a shop around 4:00 in the morning for a reviving bowl. It's still my favorite breakfast food in that part of the world.

 

[BJ]

originally posted by Thor:

Vikings came ashore and settled on the mainland of Orkney.

That makes it even cooler.

Vikings make everything cooler.

Until they show up to kill you.

 

[BJ]

Just watched it again.

I just don't get the antagonism toward Nossiter and Mondovino. Are you guys just jealous you didn't film it yourself? Do you just always have to be contrarian if it isn't your deal? Sure, there's some manipulation...but I think he's a darn sympathetic apologist for authentic wine. Can't we all just live and love?

It's not a documentary. But how many documentaries have as many unedited sequences as Mondovino?

It's our manifesto, let's rally, people!

 

[BJ]

I'm a huge fan!

 

[Thor]

Vikings make everything cooler.

Until they show up to kill you.

Well, we knock out the heat first. It's a strategy.

 

[nigel groundwater]

originally posted by Brad L i l j e q u i s t:

originally posted by Ken Schramm:

originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
And Scottish people.

Scottish people are Vikings

Actually...they're Picts. English people are Vikings.

You guys are funny :)

The English in the main are mongrels but in a healthy and affirmative sense of the word.

Not so much like 'when Harry met Sally' but more like when Harold the Saxon King marched his army North to the battle of Stamford Bridge to kill his traitorous brother Tostig and the invading Norwegian King, Harald Hardrada and his Beserkers and then marched them South within days for his final showdown with William and his Norman invaders. And he might have won that too, despite the gruelling marches with a major battle intervening that had cost him many of his best professional soldiers, had not his left flank got carried away with their success on the high ground and broken ranks to chase the retreating Normans.

So more like German [Saxon] /French with a significant Viking front end than anything else.

But hold on, the Norman French were originally Vikings so I suppose the English are really Germans in a Viking sandwich :)
Perhaps that should be were rather than are since there have been many immigrations since 1066.

 

[SFJoe]

originally posted by nigel groundwater:

originally posted by Brad L i l j e q u i s t:

originally posted by Ken Schramm:

originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
And Scottish people.

Scottish people are Vikings

Actually...they're Picts. English people are Vikings.

You guys are funny :)

The English in the main are mongrels but in a healthy and affirmative sense of the word.

...

Interesting recent article in Nature about how one set of invaders basically exterminated the male line of the previous gang in Britain. Will try to dig it up.

 

[Yixin]

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
I lived in four different provinces, Yixin, though never in Krung Thep proper. In central dialect and upcountry, we always called congee kow dom, or rice soup (kow is the Thai word for rice, though mi may be, as you say, the word in one of the dialects.) I ate a lot of this; during overnight bus trips to or from Bangkok, we would invariably stop at a shop around 4:00 in the morning for a reviving bowl. It's still my favorite breakfast food in that part of the world.

Oh, Teochew as the primary Chinese dialect spoken in Bangkok (and Chiang Mai) - it's not a Thai dialect. I don't speak much Thai despite having lived in Bangkok for 11 months (yes, shame on me). The restaurant I would get congee from (with braised duck, Teochew style) down the road from where I lived gave me much better food once I spoke in dialect with them.

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

Thanks, I understand now. It's hard to pick up a language in your spare time, I've always found, especially if you are working daily in, say, English.

In a way, I miss the Thai breakfasts most: kow dom, gai yang, even som dam with stick rice. Not so fancy, but tasty and nourishing. Bangkok's a great and terrible city, I envy you.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

The English in the main are mongrels but in a healthy and affirmative sense of the word.

Interesting recent article in Nature about how one set of invaders basically exterminated the male line of the previous gang in Britain. Will try to dig it up.

If you'd like to negotiate the matter yourself, play the game. (I have. It's long but interesting.)

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

originally posted by Brad L i l j e q u i s t:
OK, people, watch Mondovino again with the director's commentary onJust watched it again.

I just don't get the antagonism toward Nossiter and Mondovino. Are you guys just jealous you didn't film it yourself?

No, no, no. It's Nossiter's success I'm jealous of. Please.

I'll try watching it with the director's comments when the semester is over. I just watched Supersize Me the other day and, for now, I think it beats Mondovino.

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

originally posted by nigel groundwater:

originally posted by Brad L i l j e q u i s t:

originally posted by Ken Schramm:

originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
And Scottish people.

Scottish people are Vikings

Actually...they're Picts. English people are Vikings.

You guys are funny :)

The English in the main are mongrels but in a healthy and affirmative sense of the word.

Not so much like 'when Harry met Sally' but more like when Harold the Saxon King marched his army North to the battle of Stamford Bridge to kill his traitorous brother Tostig and the invading Norwegian King, Harald Hardrada and his Beserkers and then marched them South within days for his final showdown with William and his Norman invaders. And he might have won that too, despite the gruelling marches with a major battle intervening that had cost him many of his best professional soldiers, had not his left flank got carried away with their success on the high ground and broken ranks to chase the retreating Normans.

So more like German [Saxon] /French with a significant Viking front end than anything else.

But hold on, the Norman French were originally Vikings so I suppose the English are really Germans in a Viking sandwich :)
Perhaps that should be were rather than are since there have been many immigrations since 1066.

I'm almost sure there were some people living in the British Isles before the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes barged in. Did the Romans build that wall just to keep rabbits out?

 

[BJ]

originally posted by nigel groundwater:

originally posted by Brad L i l j e q u i s t:

originally posted by Ken Schramm:

originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
And Scottish people.

Scottish people are Vikings

Actually...they're Picts. English people are Vikings.

You guys are funny :)

The English in the main are mongrels but in a healthy and affirmative sense of the word.

Not so much like 'when Harry met Sally' but more like when Harold the Saxon King marched his army North to the battle of Stamford Bridge to kill his traitorous brother Tostig and the invading Norwegian King, Harald Hardrada and his Beserkers and then marched them South within days for his final showdown with William and his Norman invaders. And he might have won that too, despite the gruelling marches with a major battle intervening that had cost him many of his best professional soldiers, had not his left flank got carried away with their success on the high ground and broken ranks to chase the retreating Normans.

So more like German [Saxon] /French with a significant Viking front end than anything else.

But hold on, the Norman French were originally Vikings so I suppose the English are really Germans in a Viking sandwich :)
Perhaps that should be were rather than are since there have been many immigrations since 1066.

This is exactly what I'm talking about! The English are a bunch of secret Vikings in disguise!

 

[BJ]

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:

originally posted by nigel groundwater:

originally posted by Brad L i l j e q u i s t:

originally posted by Ken Schramm:

originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
And Scottish people.

Scottish people are Vikings

Actually...they're Picts. English people are Vikings.

You guys are funny :)

The English in the main are mongrels but in a healthy and affirmative sense of the word.

Not so much like 'when Harry met Sally' but more like when Harold the Saxon King marched his army North to the battle of Stamford Bridge to kill his traitorous brother Tostig and the invading Norwegian King, Harald Hardrada and his Beserkers and then marched them South within days for his final showdown with William and his Norman invaders. And he might have won that too, despite the gruelling marches with a major battle intervening that had cost him many of his best professional soldiers, had not his left flank got carried away with their success on the high ground and broken ranks to chase the retreating Normans.

So more like German [Saxon] /French with a significant Viking front end than anything else.

But hold on, the Norman French were originally Vikings so I suppose the English are really Germans in a Viking sandwich :)
Perhaps that should be were rather than are since there have been many immigrations since 1066.

I'm almost sure there were some people living in the British Isles before the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes barged in. Did the Romans build that wall just to keep rabbits out?

Well, we were talking England. The aforementioned Picts lived in Scotland, which is why the Romans built Hadrian's Wall. There were Celts in England before the Viking invasions, and leftover Roman types.

 

[BJ]

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:

originally posted by Brad L i l j e q u i s t:
OK, people, watch Mondovino again with the director's commentary onJust watched it again.

I just don't get the antagonism toward Nossiter and Mondovino. Are you guys just jealous you didn't film it yourself?

No, no, no. It's Nossiter's success I'm jealous of. Please.

I'll try watching it with the director's comments when the semester is over. I just watched Supersize Me the other day and, for now, I think it beats Mondovino.

I was just being hyperbolic. Still, don't quite understand the antagonism towards him from quarters with almost the same outlook. You can't say he hasn't been responsible for a significant part of the decline in Parker's power.