TN: Ferrand and Charvin with Oliver

Ferrand Ctes-du-Rhne Vieilles Vignes Cuve Antique 2007
Thanks to Oliver. 90% Grenache and 10% Syrah, Cinsault, Carignan and some white varieties. Deep inky-purple colour. Reductive and thus animal as Oliver termed it (I tend to just call the effect reductive animal to me, in the Rhne, means something else, both positive and negative) especially on the nose. A bit heavily floral yet minty-fresh thanks to lively fruit and acids. Spicy and minerally (more so than most CdRs). More roasted Provenal herbs with airing. The 14% alcohol is very well integrated. Love the freshness of the acids here, especially the tannin quality. Quite long on the finish. Lighter in fruit the next day, more emphasis on the lightly dusty tannin. All in all, I feel the style is inferior to e.g. Charvins: it seems to favour (extended) bottle age, but experience has taught me it is going to be of no avail. The problem is that with bottle age, all that can surface needs to be there in terms of (potential) terroir expression in the first place, and there is not much to it (in neither Charvins or Ferrands CdR and they are two of the finest I know, very highly recommended QPR buys at this price!). In short, the CdR comes across as a smaller-scaled version of the CdP which it is not. Qualitatively, it is a huge step down. That similarity is one of (per se admirably traditional) wine-making style, no more, no less. In other words: drink this anytime you feel like pulling a cork. Already looking forward to comparing this to the Charvin from the same vintage (seems as if 2007 may be even greater as a CdR vintage than CdP thus far liked every single one I have tasted, and I am planning to sample more soon). Rating: 88+/89-?

Ferrand Chteauneuf-du-Pape 2007
Thanks to Oliver. I am trying to remember when I last had something this good at this price: a wine that I would categorize as great, priced under 40 bucks... Wow! Of course, as it turns out, availability is a major problem (it just has to be that way, it seems the days of buying Montrose or Beausjour Duffau Lagarrosse 1990 at 25 or 35 per bottle respectively, yet by the case, are long gone...). And I am not claiming this to be quite on the level of the latter, but I cannot help it: when did something this good come at this price last? The trick is not fruit, overwhelming body or size, but minerality and depth. The way I see Chteauneuf today, the market seems roughly divided into three (price) levels: firstly, trophy bottles that are all costly and that range from questionable (e.g. those hyped Philippe Cambie wines I could list domaine names now as if I were able to tell the wines apart, but I am quite sure he could not do it himself) to truly memorable; secondly, there are those producers whose wines we CdP lovers not born yesterday used to buy on (almost?) a yearly basis (you know which we grumpy old CdP lovers have all got our list of favourites), and that I would still buy with regularity if they were not manoeuvring themselves into a price category that is effectively making them fall between two stools (so far as QPR considerations are concerned feel free to continue buying all you can afford); thirdly, there are those who, I am afraid, are all going to aspire after that middling QPR category in the long run, but who, for the time being, are worth cueing at cellar door (forgive me for not going into detail about a fourth category of wines I will neither buy nor drink, that is, unless offered to sample for free). Now is the time to admit I did not even know Ferrands wines until a couple of weeks ago. God, how I love that the sense of discovery, that is (and if I am the only who is/was ignorant around here, well, I could not care less!). A blend of 90% Grenache and the rest Syrah, Mourvdre and Cinsault, from vines in La Gardiole and Cabrires, planted in 1910 and 1930, aged 12-14 months in tank before being bottled without filtration. Cannot emphasize this enough: old-vine Grenache, oak-free as it should be! Opaque-inky purple colour. Not surprisingly, the style is the same as that of the CdR here, a bit reductive to pull corks now, but what floral essence underneath, lavender and sea salt (including to the youthfully bitter tannin), great freshness, incredible depth, complexity, minerality, balance and intensity for a wine in this price category. Some (by far not all!) CdPs in the aforementioned trophy bottle category tend to offer more multi-layered, and no doubt thicker fruit I could not care less (in the paradigm of CdP I grew up with, this would have fallen in the fruity category). Floral tobacco, minty cocoa, some pit fruit, fresh prune, with airing. Racy wine with real cut and grip. Long and quite palate-staining. Terrific alcohol integration (= what almost everyone else claims impossible albeit not for the right reasons). Traditional, ageworthy wine, the rare kind that, as Michelle once termed it, makes me happy. Have been thinking about it every day since then. Thinking this over, I have come to the conclusion that in Chteauneuf alone, this may be the finest QPR buy since at least the 1998 Charvin which, if I remember correctly, cost more, and my gut instinct suggests that the 2007 Ferrand should surpass it in time, maybe not by much, but still... Rating: 95+/96?

Charvin Ctes-du-Rhne 2001
Opened our last, pristine bottle for Oliver as an illustration why it ultimately does not make sense to cellar per se well-made and naturally well-structured wine stemming from not too great terroir. Cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear. Mind you, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this wine, quite on the contrary, it has been a pleasure to drink right from release, and it has the necessary stuffing to age (that is, keep versus improve) in bottle. I will also admit that the 2001 has been, as so many wines of the vintage (thinking of CdP more than CdR knowing fewer of the latter than the former), always been on a fast evolutionary track (an otherwise classy, balanced, if early-harmonious vintage). Bretty-sweaty but fairly complex with tertiary aromas and flavours. Round, quite smooth, yet racy, with nice acids. Mild and round Kirsch Schnaps fruit that is fanning out and showing more cut and freshness (and less brett) on the back end. Some green and black pepper. No longer holding up too well in the decanter/open bottle. Smoky-minerally if not flintstony-burnt with an ashtray top note the following day. Shiitake and woodear mushrooms. Opened a bottle of the comparatively unevolved 2003 for comparison the following day not that holding on to that forever would make any more sense... Rating: 89-/88(-?)

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

J'ai gch vingt ans de mes plus belles annes au billard. Si c'tait refaire, je recommencerais. Roger Conti
 
I couldn't disagree more about aging Charvin CdR. I have had the 96 at Charvin a couple of times in the last year or so and it has tasted fresh, earthy and vibrant. And that, let us remember, is an off vintage. The 00 is just coming back into its own. These wines drink well young, then close, then drink well again. I don't know for how long. I wouldn't age them as I would is CdPs, but they do do well and develop.

I also disagree with your evaluation of the terroir of his CdR.
His CdR vineyards are just over the northern boundary of CdP, in this way like Beaucastel's Coudelet and I think should be considered accordingly.
 
I can't speak beyond what's been said to the prestige of Charvin's terroir, but I've had great success with well-aged Charvin. From a cold cellar, but still.
 
originally posted by Thor:
I can't speak beyond what's been said to the prestige of Charvin's terroir, but I've had great success with well-aged Charvin. From a cold cellar, but still.

CdP or CdR? No disagreement on the former, the CdP improves with bottle age (= meaning, there's as much and/or more to it mature than young). As to the latter, it's not a matter of how long the CdR will keep, merely if there's much to gain from it. In my experience, it either remains youthfully fresh (e.g. the 2003 has hardly budged since release), or doesn't (e.g. the 2001, one of the more complex Charvin CdRs at/since release), depending on the vintage. Unless a wine improves in bottle, one might as well drink it young, regardless of how long it'll keep if well-stored (needless to emphasize, I'm exclusively referring to perfectly-stored bottles). I agree wholeheartedly with what Jonathan says, that the CdR drinks well young, then closes down, and at some later point will "drink well again" - in other words, if all goes well (as indeed it should), nothing negative happens? Idle capital occupying cellar space? There's always going to be another vintage...

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

J'ai gch vingt ans de mes plus belles annes au billard. Si c'tait refaire, je recommencerais. Roger Conti
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
I couldn't disagree more about aging Charvin CdR. I have had the 96 at Charvin a couple of times in the last year or so and it has tasted fresh, earthy and vibrant. And that, let us remember, is an off vintage. The 00 is just coming back into its own. These wines drink well young, then close, then drink well again. I don't know for how long. I wouldn't age them as I would is CdPs, but they do do well and develop.

I also disagree with your evaluation of the terroir of his CdR.
His CdR vineyards are just over the northern boundary of CdP, in this way like Beaucastel's Coudelet and I think should be considered accordingly.

If/that Coudoulet tends to drink better with a little bottle age, do you think this is a function of the winemaking style at Beaucastel, or that terroir (including, albeit not exclusively, soil notes) needs time to make an appearance/surface in the wine?

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

J'ai gch vingt ans de mes plus belles annes au billard. Si c'tait refaire, je recommencerais. Roger Conti
 
Basically, what I'm talking about here are two (not mutually exclusive) definitions of "ageworthiness": that a wine will keep versus improve in bottle. (That is, assuming none of us is going to cellar wines that are bound to fall apart in no time, and assuming patience should be rewarded.)

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

J'ai gch vingt ans de mes plus belles annes au billard. Si c'tait refaire, je recommencerais. Roger Conti
 
CdR, not CdP. And I do think it develops into something other than older CdR. No, not like a CdP (Charvin's or otherwise) would age, but still aged and, um, complexified. As I said, from a cold -- glacial might be a better term -- cellar (not mine), which might make a difference.
 
originally posted by Thor:
CdR, not CdP. And I do think it develops into something other than older CdR. No, not like a CdP (Charvin's or otherwise) would age, but still aged and, um, complexified. As I said, from a cold -- glacial might be a better term -- cellar (not mine), which might make a difference.

Unfortunately, I cannot compare (none of my wine buddies buy CdR, except Oli, and he's only getting started). I wish I had a cellar la Cawdor Castle, but to give an illustration, from my collection, 1989s and 1990s tend to be still short of full maturity, 1995s (I hope) are slowly opening up, 1998s remain almost ridiculously youthful etc. I'm not happy that my early suspicions regarding 2001 turn out to be correct - but it's not as if it were a problem with well-stored bottles (on the contrary: on a faster evolutionary track need not mean in a negative way). But I've had 2001s at tastings from professional storage (= importers/wine merchants) that already seemed problematic. In other words, I'll trust in what 2001s I bought at release (especially because I liked the wines from the start), but I'd be extremely cautious buying any more now (such as at auction).

As to "complexification" of CdR - I almost always hold on to a few bottles of the Charvin (it's the only CdR I buy every year - others only sporadically) out of curiosity, and I won't say I'm not waiting for it to happen in some vintage or other (the wine tends to be structured enough so there's no risk). And I'll admit I've had Coudoulets that seemed to prove the point - but then I wonder, do exceptional vintages like 1990 prove much of a point in general? More often than not, my impression is/was that it's due to the wine-making style that one will not drink certain CdRs young, but that cellaring those didn't necessarily add layers of complexity either...

Maybe this is why I've ended up buying only Charvin's CdR on a regular basis: style (in addition to average quality). It always seems to give pleasure, remains a fine QPR, and it doesn't make me feel like remaining bottles need to be drained once/if it starts closing down.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

J'ai gch vingt ans de mes plus belles annes au billard. Si c'tait refaire, je recommencerais. Roger Conti
 
Yes I think Charvin's CdRs get better with age (or at least I like them better). In their first year, they are all about fresh fruit and Charvin's distinctive perfumed nose. They do remain fresh after they have opened back up (which may be the basis for David's response) but one starts to see the complexity on the palate that Charvin seeks along with freshness.

As I understand Beaucastel's winemaking both for CdR and CdP, while they use foudre and Charvin has no wood anywhere, Beaucastel is as traditional as Charvin, so I don't think winemaking would account for Coudelet's greater ageability. But then I don't think it has greater ageability. My Coudelets generally start showing their age somewhere north of 10 and south of 15. I don't have enough experience with Charvin (the first one I bought was the 00 and I've only tasted the 96 a couple of times at the domaine) but I see no reason to expect less from them.

I recently told Laurent that I was quite distressed about the aging profile of his CdRs. I bought them to drink young so that I could keep my hands of my Charvin CdP. Now I find that I have to be restrained with the CdR as well. I'd rather drink them up young, but I do prefer them with some bottle age.

My cellar by the way is barely respectable, getting up to the mid 60s during the height of summer.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Yes I think Charvin's CdRs get better with age (or at least I like them better). In their first year, they are all about fresh fruit and Charvin's distinctive perfumed nose. They do remain fresh after they have opened back up (which may be the basis for David's response) but one starts to see the complexity on the palate that Charvin seeks along with freshness.

As I understand Beaucastel's winemaking both for CdR and CdP, while they use foudre and Charvin has no wood anywhere, Beaucastel is as traditional as Charvin, so I don't think winemaking would account for Coudelet's greater ageability. But then I don't think it has greater ageability. My Coudelets generally start showing their age somewhere north of 10 and south of 15. I don't have enough experience with Charvin (the first one I bought was the 00 and I've only tasted the 96 a couple of times at the domaine) but I see no reason to expect less from them.

I recently told Laurent that I was quite distressed about the aging profile of his CdRs. I bought them to drink young so that I could keep my hands of my Charvin CdP. Now I find that I have to be restrained with the CdR as well. I'd rather drink them up young, but I do prefer them with some bottle age.

My cellar by the way is barely respectable, getting up to the mid 60s during the height of summer.

While I may have been exaggerating my point about terroir (I clearly didn't mean to say Charvin's CdR is inferior to anyone else's, quite on the contrary), the point was/is that there's a tradeoff of patience/idle capital/storage space etc. on the one hand, and what there is to gain in terms of i.e. additional complexity etc. on the other hand. Maybe this does have directly to do with storage conditions? I'm clearly guessing (for lack of comparison), but in general, the greater a wine, the greater its potential for e.g. finesse and/or terroir intricacies, provided it doesn't get "cooked out" by either heat/light/misstorage (= damage done in no time) nor mediocre storage (over the long term - "damage" that may only be evident in direct comparison to pristine bottles). For wine that isn't bound to develop much in terms of "detail" (because, in terms of its genetic disposition, so to speak, to me partly a function of terroir, there's little there to begin with), one may wonder if consistently cold storage isn't just going to preserve it - more or less. Maybe a little up and down is going to give such a wine that something extra it needs? Clearly speculating, of course. But I do in fact know restaurant owners who store wine in different cellars at (intentionally!) different temperatures according to whether they feel they're intrinsically (in terms of predisposition) short-, mid- or long-term wines - not just because they know from experience how quickly each is going to be sold out (= sometimes hard to predict, no use taking the risk on purpose if one's got the choice).

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

J'ai gch vingt ans de mes plus belles annes au billard. Si c'tait refaire, je recommencerais. Roger Conti
 
Is your point that I get better out of aging Charvin because my cellar is less than optimal according to standard criteria? That may be and then my response would be so you should age your Charvin in cellars that, while fine for 10 months a year, hit the mid 60s in summer. Even that conclusion may be belied by the 96 CdR that I had at Charvin (assuming his storeage conditions are better than mine).

It also may be that we just disagree. It happens, I hear.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Is your point that I get better out of aging Charvin because my cellar is less than optimal according to standard criteria? That may be and then my response would be so you should age your Charvin in cellars that, while fine for 10 months a year, hit the mid 60s in summer. Even that conclusion may be belied by the 96 CdR that I had at Charvin (assuming his storeage conditions are better than mine).

It also may be that we just disagree. It happens, I hear.

Believe me, I wasn't trying to pull your leg: I'm clearly guessing here, but I mean it. What comes to the surface in a wine needs to be either potentially there in its youth/part of its predisposition (in which case perfect - consistently cold, dark and humid - storage will bring to the fore whatever is there slowly but inevitably), or be "added" in some way. I regard well-made wine as living creatures, so to speak, so maybe it's a matter of having either great genes or "lived" (a full life, that is)? And no: I'll admit I'm not curious enough to buy wines that correspond to that idea and experiment. Nor will I say it's impossible without trying.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

J'ai gch vingt ans de mes plus belles annes au billard. Si c'tait refaire, je recommencerais. Roger Conti
 
No, I don't think you're pulling my leg. I do think you are looking for an explanation for a disagreement when it may just be that we disagree since I am directly contradicting your claim that the wines don't taste better with age, rather than just don't break apart. Of course, "directly contradicting" is an odd way of putting a taste disagreement. Better to say, in my experience, the wines do get better with age.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
No, I don't think you're pulling my leg. I do think you are looking for an explanation for a disagreement when it may just be that we disagree since I am directly contradicting your claim that the wines don't taste better with age, rather than just don't break apart. Of course, "directly contradicting" is an odd way of putting a taste disagreement. Better to say, in my experience, the wines do get better with age.

I'm glad to hear that (that is, glad for you), no intention of taking away from your experience! To me, Charvin's CdR, while different before/after a certain closed phase (depending on the vintage), is usually neither better nor worse (I like it equally well either way).

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

J'ai gch vingt ans de mes plus belles annes au billard. Si c'tait refaire, je recommencerais. Roger Conti
 
Mind you, I don't get to find out if my own (normally-temperatured) Charvin CdRs age, because they -- for reasons akin to the cellar space issues described above -- get consumed very quickly, but a friend in colder climes (and with an icebox for a basement, though there's a fair seasonal drift) does hold them, with the previously mentioned results.

God, that's a tortured paragraph.
 
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