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Tearroir?
- Thread starter Ned Hoey
- Start date
I remember touring Gallo-Sonoma and seeing the beautiful slopes expressing their terroir...that they'd bulldozed and earth-moved and soil-layered into whatever it was they were looking for under each variety, the proper number of meters from sharpshooter-trapping ponds, with the exposure adjusted for each variety and its progression of canopy defoliations that were being tested.
Well, you know, whatever. Godspeed, Gina & Matt.
I've actually heard a lot of talk, all of it catty and negative, about this practice from vignerons over the years. I'm happy Bertrand brought it up, but surprised it's not more talked-about.
My opinion? Well, OK, if one must be serious and pedantic...
1) If it's unexploited land, go ahead and do whatever, and then (preferably) see if it expresses the expected terroir, or (less preferably) see if the gov't will let you get away with it.
2) If it's appellation-designated land, but you're not disturbing/changing the root zone, no worries as long as you don't include young vines in the wine, or bottle them without the appellation designation.
3) If you're changing the root zone (serious earthmoving, etc.), then it loses the appellation. Period.
I mean, I'm not always the biggest proponent of the sanctity of appellations and typicity, but if they're going to mean something, then they have to have standards. And building a mountain from a molehill just doesn't work for me.
Of course, if one can create a new appellation from the newly-created site, so be it.
Well, you know, whatever. Godspeed, Gina & Matt.
I've actually heard a lot of talk, all of it catty and negative, about this practice from vignerons over the years. I'm happy Bertrand brought it up, but surprised it's not more talked-about.
My opinion? Well, OK, if one must be serious and pedantic...
1) If it's unexploited land, go ahead and do whatever, and then (preferably) see if it expresses the expected terroir, or (less preferably) see if the gov't will let you get away with it.
2) If it's appellation-designated land, but you're not disturbing/changing the root zone, no worries as long as you don't include young vines in the wine, or bottle them without the appellation designation.
3) If you're changing the root zone (serious earthmoving, etc.), then it loses the appellation. Period.
I mean, I'm not always the biggest proponent of the sanctity of appellations and typicity, but if they're going to mean something, then they have to have standards. And building a mountain from a molehill just doesn't work for me.
Of course, if one can create a new appellation from the newly-created site, so be it.
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
These things are more common than one expects. Think of the terraces at Cte-Rtie or the Kaiserstuhl (http://gogermany.about.com/od/pictu...t-Photo-Gallery/Vineyards-in-Black-Forest.htm). I don't think anyone objected to Henri Jayer's applying dynamite to create the Cros Parantoux. In the case of the Folatires, looks as though it was unplanted land -- what do you expect them to do, pull each plant and tree out by its roots? Don't know what was going on with the Clos de Verger.
If he had created it out of the Cros Prejayer by dynamiting an existing vineyard, some would have. Or I would have. Whichever.I don't think anyone objected to Henri Jayer applying dynamite to create the Cros Parantoux.
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
Then I think you've got a big problem with German vineyards and Flurbereinigung. I may, too, but I still drink the wines with pleasure.
What bothers me most is that the reasons expressed are mostly to with expediency and commercial concerns. Sure, a few tweaks around the edges to fix a damaging drainage problem, but some of this seems to genuinely compromise the soil aspect of the terroir. Do they not think so? Or do they not care? The fact that it's not information that is volunteered or reported by media is kinda disconcerting.
I wonder how many years it takes for soil to return to full balance?
I wonder how many years it takes for soil to return to full balance?
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
These things are more common than one expects. Think of the terraces at Cte-Rtie or the Kaiserstuhl (http://gogermany.about.com/od/pictu...t-Photo-Gallery/Vineyards-in-Black-Forest.htm). I don't think anyone objected to Henri Jayer's applying dynamite to create the Cros Parantoux. In the case of the Folatires, looks as though it was unplanted land -- what do you expect them to do, pull each plant and tree out by its roots? Don't know what was going on with the Clos de Verger.
In the case of very old terraces, created by manual labor, enough time has past, and the work was
no doubt less invasive, to have ceased being a reason for concern. Those newer ones need some time.
How much I couldn't say, at least as far as reliably expressing their terroir goes. The wine might certainly taste good now though.
When was it that Jayer did that? During or just after WWII? A different era and not really the same thing as say, bulldozing in Gaudichots.
I think we're conflating concepts. I like good wine. I like wines that speak of their place, with authenticity. I don't think those two wines are necessary the same wines. Yet I prefer those that accomplish both.Then I think you've got a big problem with German vineyards and Flurbereinigung. I may, too, but I still drink the wines with pleasure.
Aside from that, I have issues with naming Wine X as from the historic Kolm Vineyard and expressing its historic terroir if the Kolm Vineyard was created by a bulldozer last April.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
I recall, at Porter Creek, they had to stop using a vineyard near the river because Gallo's terra-forming, just across the way, released so much manganese that the wines started to taste funny.... (I seem to recall that compensation was offered.)
Christian Miller (CMM)
Christian Miller
originally posted by Ned Hoey:
Tearroir?Bertrand Celce at wineterroirs posts on some rather heavy handed "manipulations".
click me
This activity is something rarely if ever discussed in my experience.
Case 1) A long-existing vineyard has drainage improved by digging narrow stone or tile-lined drainage trenches. No vines are disturbed, nor is 95% of the soil. The better drained vineyard yields similar but less herbaceous wines and (not unrelated) the vines have less vigorous canopies.
Case 2) Over the course of four centuries, generations of vignerons (tired of backbreaking crouches, random rivulets and accidental tumbles) gradually terrace a steep vineyard slope. The drainage is moderately affected and the soil erosion pattern disrupted.
Case 3) A small hill property exists in a terroir of rolling hills that provide wines with a distinct style and flavor. The top of the hill is flattened with bulldozers and excavators to provide room for a winery. The soil and rock, of the same type as the rest of the hill and appellation, is pulverized and distributed on the slopes below, thus replicating in the course of 2 years the work of centuries of erosion. The slopes are then planted with vines from a field selection of the surrounding hills' vineyards.
Case 4) Some obscenely wealthy Chablis lover discovers that his property has almost the exact same exposure and weather patterns as Chablis, but his soil is eroded Sierra granite. He creates a small vineyard by scraping the soil down to bedrock, then replaces it with Kimmeridgian clay and chalk from Chablis and plants a field selection from Chablis 1re cru vineyards.
Terroir or not? Have fun.
Gallo bought PC's chardonnay vineyard visible right through the window of the tastingI recall, at Porter Creek, they had to stop using a vineyard near the river because Mondavi's terra-forming, just across the way, released so much manganese that the wines started to taste funny.... (I seem to recall that compensation was offered.)
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Yes. I'll go fix.originally posted by Thor:
Gallo bought PC's chardonnay vineyard visible right through the window of the tastingI recall, at Porter Creek, they had to stop using a vineyard near the river because Mondavi's terra-forming, just across the way, released so much manganese that the wines started to taste funny.... (I seem to recall that compensation was offered.)shackroom and..."re-engineered" it. Is that what you're thinking of?
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
Most people cite German wines as being among the truest to their place and authenticity.originally posted by Thor:
I think we're conflating concepts. I like good wine. I like wines that speak of their place, with authenticity. I don't think those two wines are necessary the same wines. Yet I prefer those that accomplish both.Then I think you've got a big problem with German vineyards and Flurbereinigung. I may, too, but I still drink the wines with pleasure.
Aside from that, I have issues with naming Wine X as from the Kolm Vineyard if the Kolm Vineyard was created by a bulldozer last April.
So far I've been unable to locate a picture of the famous Baden vineyard that I am seeking, but if I come across it, I think it will be a real eye-opener.
That's nice.Most people cite German wines as being among the truest to their place and authenticity.
I like terroir. I like wines with terroir. I don't think terroir is limited to vineyards surpassing a certain age (how could it be?), but I don't think that's the same thing as hauling a bunch of rocks to a field in Iowa and calling it the Sonnenuhr. I mean, it might taste the same, if one can replicate the entirety of the terroir. It might be better, worse, or the same. But it's not the Sonnenuhr. That, at least for me, is a distinction that matters, even if it's not the only thing that matters.
If one's primary or sole purpose is a wine that tastes like it came from the Sonnenuhr, I suppose it doesn't matter. I mean, we're going to have to deal with this eventually (probably not in our lifetimes, but one never knows). Someone will replicate a given terroir, chemically. And then...I dunno. I suppose I'm a hypocrite on this issue, in that I'd love $5 mushrooms that tasted like great Alba truffles, but would be less enthused by $5 Clos Ste-Hune in lieu of the real thing. (Well, maybe not.)
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
1. How fucking late do you stay up there? Still watching the Eifel Tower shows at that hour? You know, you could be doing something useful like reading Going Rogue. ;)originally posted by Thor:
That's nice.Most people cite German wines as being among the truest to their place and authenticity.
I like terroir. I like wines with terroir. I don't think terroir is limited to vineyards surpassing a certain age (how could it be?), but I don't think that's the same thing as hauling a bunch of rocks to a field in Iowa and calling it the Sonnenuhr. I mean, it might taste the same, if one can replicate the entirety of the terroir. It might be better, worse, or the same. But it's not the Sonnenuhr. That, at least for me, is a distinction that matters, even if it's not the only thing that matters.
If one's primary or sole purpose is a wine that tastes like it came from the Sonnenuhr, I suppose it doesn't matter. I mean, we're going to have to deal with this eventually (probably not in our lifetimes, but one never knows). Someone will replicate a given terroir, chemically. And then...I dunno. I suppose I'm a hypocrite on this issue, in that I'd love $5 mushrooms that tasted like great Alba truffles, but would be less enthused by $5 Clos Ste-Hune in lieu of the real thing. (Well, maybe not.)
2. I think your vision of terroir and the truth of what goes on in some places in Germany can't really be reconciled. I wish they could, but it ain't so simple -- I mean is Sonnenuhr today what it was 40 years ago, forget about imitations? (BTW, I do think that the most serious challenges will come in our lifetime, and to some extent, one can argue that they appeared many years ago -- Paul Draper long liked to put his Monte Bellos in tastings with Latours -- is that Latour terroir at Monte Bello or just Monte Bello terroir through his interpretation resembles Latour?)
Why do you hate me so?1. How fucking late do you stay up there? Still watching the Eiffel Tower shows at that hour? You know, you could be doing something useful like reading Going Rogue. ;)
Actually, I think it can. I'm not talking about "truth." I think you're trying to posit that I'm promoting a vision of terroir as the unchanging essence of a site. And I think it can be that, but isn't always, and maybe isn't even that very often. If vineyard X is different than X from 100 years ago, then they're two different terroirs, even if the delta is small. They almost certainly are anyway, given climate effects (not just AGW, but non-A climate change including rainfall changes, etc.) Changing the root zone "seems" worse than changing the mesoclimate because it's bedrock rather than air and water, but it's still a modification of the terroir.2. I think your vision of terroir and the truth of what goes on in some places in Germany can't really be reconciled.
What I'm interested in is the effort to express the terroir (in wines where that's possible, which it isn't always even in wines I love), which should be able -- by the experienced (not the same as "the skilled") -- to be identifiable. I don't need to taste identical Sonnenuhrness in 1870 and 2007, I need to taste Sonnenuhr1870 and Sonnenuhr2007, which should have a lot in common with their surrounding vintages, but which may not be fully identifiable as the other. My objection to the practices described above is that they're not efforts to express terroir, they're efforts to create terroir. By some definitions, that might even be spoof. So if the Sonnenuhr is an artificial construct in some given year, then for a period of time after that it's not the Sonnenuhr as defined by the previous terroir. At some later date, it's the Sonnenuhr as defined by the new terroir. But they're not the same terroir, even if they taste the same. I guess I don't really see this as a difficult separation to make.
That has always been an uninteresting question to me. It would be interesting if Latour were an overt attempt to mimic Monte Bello or vice versa. Or if they tasted the same due to massive terroir similarities. Or if they tasted the same due to gross incompetence. But it's not interesting to me that they happen to taste enough alike to pair well in blind tastings in the absence of a dialogue, or at least an explanation, of why that is. I care about the latter, not the former.Paul Draper long liked to put his Monte Bellos in tastings with Latours -- is that Latour terroir at Monte Bello or just Monte Bello terroir through his interpretation resembles Latour?)
Christian,
I posted this because some of the actions taken seemed pretty disruptive of old terroirs. Some of the wines from these places can be pricey. I would like it if that info was made more available than it is now.
When it comes to deciding what small production wines to seek out and buy, often having to decide
without being able to taste them, information about that would be helpful.
It seems like you feel it is too complicated to assess. I don't think so. If I was called upon to decide on purchases of those wines in your examples, and there's a lot missing in your hypothetical cases, based on no info other than what you've provided, I would choose the first two and pass on the second two.
I posted this because some of the actions taken seemed pretty disruptive of old terroirs. Some of the wines from these places can be pricey. I would like it if that info was made more available than it is now.
When it comes to deciding what small production wines to seek out and buy, often having to decide
without being able to taste them, information about that would be helpful.
It seems like you feel it is too complicated to assess. I don't think so. If I was called upon to decide on purchases of those wines in your examples, and there's a lot missing in your hypothetical cases, based on no info other than what you've provided, I would choose the first two and pass on the second two.
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
I think the problem here is that your definition of terroir then becomes so narrow that it can't work across vintages. It's always fascinating to taste in a region that I annually visit: the first few tastings are a fog, trying to sort out what is specific to this producer this year, what is specific to this particular vineyard/terroir, and what is specific to the vintage. Sooner or later, things come into focus, but it's not always immediate. In Burgundy, tastings during the first week at houses such as Bouchard, Drouhin, Faiveley, and Jadot can help a lot in sorting this through because one can do essentially the whole region through a particular focus, but in Germany and the Northern Rhne, there really aren't such specific equivalents.originally posted by Thor:
Actually, I think it can. I'm not talking about "truth." I think you're trying to posit that I'm promoting a vision of terroir as the unchanging essence of a site. And I think it can be that, but isn't always, and maybe isn't even that very often. If vineyard X is different than X from 100 years ago, then they're two different terroirs, even if the delta is small. They almost certainly are anyway, given climate effects (not just AGW, but non-A climate change including rainfall changes, etc.) Changing the root zone "seems" worse than changing the mesoclimate because it's bedrock rather than air and water, but it's still a modification of the terroir.2. I think your vision of terroir and the truth of what goes on in some places in Germany can't really be reconciled.
What I'm interested in is the effort to express the terroir (in wines where that's possible, which it isn't always even in wines I love), which should be able -- by the experienced (not to the same as the skilled) -- to be identifiable. I don't need to taste identical Sonnenuhrness in 1870 and 2007, I need to taste Sonnenuhr1870 and Sonnenuhr2007, which should have a lot in common with their surrounding vintages, but which may not be fully identifiable as the other. My objection to the practices described above is that they're not efforts to express terroir, they're efforts to create terroir. By some definitions, that might even be spoof. So if the Sonnenuhr is an artificial construct in some given year, then for a period of time after that it's not the Sonnenuhr as defined by the previous terroir. At some later date, it's the Sonnenuhr as defined by the new terroir. But they're not the same terroir, even if they taste the same. I guess I don't really see this as a difficult separation to make.
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
Although theoretically, I can see separating the two, in reality I can't.originally posted by Thor:
. . . But it's not interesting to me that they happen to taste enough alike to pair well in blind tastings in the absence of a dialogue, or at least an explanation, of why that is. I care about the latter, not the former.