Tender Bar to NYC for 2 days

Heh. Just was referencing this in the Chinato thread.

The Americano is a lighter aperitif style- it's Mauro's take on Campari (and made w/ Grignolino from Cascina 'Tavijn). Luli is Moscato from Bera and the Chinato is 100% Nebbiolo from a mystery Barbaresco producer (though I'd, um, very much like to try it next to Roagna's).
 
Mark,
Along the lines of Seth's recommendation for a Fifty-Fifty (also, Fitty-Fitty, house cocktail at Pegu Club) try a Bamboo Cocktail. It's wine-based; in the aperitif mode, with bitters. The alcohol is quiet, and it's bone dry.

1.5 oz Fino or Amontillado Sherry
-Tio Pep works just fine here. I think a Manzanilla would be to salty.
1.5 oz Dry Vermouth
-Noilly Prat is a no brainer.
2 dashes Orange Bitters
-Regan's or Fee's both work
1 dash Angostura Bitters (optional - non-tradional)

Stir as though you were making a martini. Serve up. You can garnish with a twist, as tradition dictates, but try a sip without. An orange twist is nice, also - or a sprig of rosemary, if you're being precious. I prefer it without the Angostura Bitters, myself.

An aside:
I'm familiar with the concept of ichigo-ichie; it's awesome, and a admirable approach to service, but the first thing that pops into my mind is the Japanese for strawberry - ichigo (苺). Still, seems like a legit, passionate guy.

Also, Gordon's gin is special... it tastes like the Platonic ideal of Gin. That and Beefeater may not be the spriest kids on the block, like say your cucumber-infused fellas or your Bluecoats, or even the timelessness of Plymouth, but there's something there.

Oh, I'm just some lurker here; a southern hayseed lost in New York. Do your worst.
 
originally posted by William Piper:
Mark,
Along the lines of Seth's recommendation for a Fifty-Fifty (also, Fitty-Fitty, house cocktail at Pegu Club) try a Bamboo Cocktail. It's wine-based; in the aperitif mode, with bitters. The alcohol is quiet, and it's bone dry.

1.5 oz Fino or Amontillado Sherry
-Tio Pep works just fine here. I think a Manzanilla would be to salty.
1.5 oz Dry Vermouth
-Noilly Prat is a no brainer.
2 dashes Orange Bitters
-Regan's or Fee's both work
1 dash Angostura Bitters (optional - non-tradional)

Stir as though you were making a martini. Serve up. You can garnish with a twist, as tradition dictates, but try a sip without. An orange twist is nice, also - or a sprig of rosemary, if you're being precious. I prefer it without the Angostura Bitters, myself.

An aside:
I'm familiar with the concept of ichigo-ichie; it's awesome, and a admirable approach to service, but the first thing that pops into my mind is the Japanese for strawberry - ichigo (ƀ). Still, seems like a legit, passionate guy.

Also, Gordon's gin is special... it tastes like the Platonic ideal of Gin. That and Beefeater may not be the spriest kids on the block, like say your cucumber-infused fellas or your Bluecoats, or even the timelessness of Plymouth, but there's something there.

Oh, I'm just some lurker here; a southern hayseed lost in New York. Do your worst.
What happened with Noilly Prat and the new formula?
 
originally posted by William Piper:
Seth's recommendation for a Fifty-Fifty (also, Fitty-Fitty, house cocktail at Pegu Club)...
originally posted by Seth Hill:
A "Fitty/Fitty" of half Plymouth Gin and half Dolin Blanc Vermouth...
I did give props, you see. Do you know if that was one of Audrey's? Jim, Phil, Dale?

originally posted by William Piper:
Oh, I'm just some lurker here; a southern hayseed lost in New York. Do your worst.
Do I remember you from Boqueria? If I'm correct, I remember a sherry-based cocktail of yours fondly. Oh- and fuck off, etc. etc.

Also...
originally posted by lars makie:
A quick search came up with this:

FROM FINDEATDRINK.COM

Since he'd never de-cloak to do so, I'll give a shout-out to my friend, fellow Chambers St. alumnus, and WD lurker Nick Bumstead who launched the site Lars references. Well worth a look.
 
Seth -
Speaking of de-cloaking, Yes, I *still* work at Boqueria - I'm kind of shopping around for somewhere with a real wine list i.e. something I can get my teeth into.

Fitty-Fitty is Audry's drink, or if nothing else, she's revived it. She tested a lot of different gins, vermouths and techniques to determine which had the best flavor. I think that a painfully cold Fitty-Fitty was deemed best.

The site seems pretty neat - thanks for putting that on my radar.
 
Wouldn't a proper amontillado be too strong? How about a pasada-style fino/manzanilla, which seems much more in line with what the drink is trying to achieve?

Oh, and welcome!
 
It appears to me that this is a class, whereas before I thought it was going to be more of a guest bartending stint.

Mr. Uyeda teaches classes in Tokyo at his Academy, so I guess I should have put it together earlier.
 
Had a conversation this evening with a very reputable tender in which the aforementioned hard shake was dismissed as wrongheaded and silly, for painstaking-iterated physical reasons. I'm not taking a position, and Ood knows I don't have an inherent opinion, but there is a controversy among the experts. It's interesting, and given that the research involves drinking fabulous cocktails at multiple venues, I can't really say that there's a downside to any of this discussion.
 
originally posted by Thor:
Had a conversation this evening with a very reputable tender in which the aforementioned hard shake was dismissed as wrongheaded and silly, for painstaking-iterated physical reasons.

This is the cool thing to say at the moment. That it is all BS.

But I have yet to hear from the guy that has actually been to Tender Bar who says it is BS. If that dude is around, please ask him to comment. Because I have been there, and I say it isn't.

The fundamental problem is that a lot of folks misinterpret the Hard Shake as the "Shake that Shit As Hard As You Can" Shake, which the Hard Shake is not. The Hard Shake is actually a refined rolling motion, as I have explained above. And folks aren't starting with chilled raw materials over here. That makes all the difference in terms of dilution. So the misinterpretations cause a backlash of people who say that the technique is BS.

I have been, and I have studied with people who know, and I say it is real.

Show me the dude who is actually doing the Hard Shake anywhere in the States like they do it in Ginza, and then I think I would be more open to hearing criticisms of the Shake.

It's too bad that folks are bad mouthing something that, if they took the time to learn about, could be entirely revelatory.

Also, which "reputable tender" are we talking about?

I know a few reputable tenders pretty well. A lot of them were at the Hard Shake class I talked about above. Because they want to know about it.
 
But I have yet to hear from the guy that has actually been to Tender Bar who says it is BS.
The guy who is a gal has been there, and we had an involved physics-geek discussion about it (and given my educational background, I'm equipped to comprehend such a discussion). She thinks that the impact of the back-and-forth is superior to the circulatory method, and there was a very long and passionate defense of this position. As I said, I can't adjudicate, I haven't had a true "hard shake," and I really don't know anything until I taste the results in an actual scientific survey, which I don't expect to happen in my lifetime. I will probably be in Japan before then...maybe this fall...but that's not a study, that's a survey. I'm open to anything that makes great cocktails, and as with biodynamie or cosmoculture I'm willing to accept mindless nonsense or brilliance I can't understand if the result is a superior product. And if that requires a hard shake, than it does.

(edited to add) And you know, Levi, this can't and won't be about people calling out other people. Because that isn't evidence. That's religion. I'm as enthused as you. But if we're going to say "this is better" and attempt to defend said position, I need more than enthusiasm. I need double-blind trials.
 
originally posted by Thor:
But I have yet to hear from the guy that has actually been to Tender Bar who says it is BS.
The guy who is a gal has been there, and we had an involved physics-geek discussion about it (and given my educational background, I'm equipped to comprehend such a discussion). She thinks that the impact of the back-and-forth is superior to the circulatory method, and there was a very long and passionate defense of this position. As I said, I can't adjudicate, I haven't had a true "hard shake," and I really don't know anything until I taste the results in an actual scientific survey, which I don't expect to happen in my lifetime. I will probably be in Japan before then...maybe this fall...but that's not a study, that's a survey. I'm open to anything that makes great cocktails, and as with biodynamie or cosmoculture I'm willing to accept mindless nonsense or brilliance I can't understand if the result is a superior product. And if that requires a hard shake, than it does.

(edited to add) And you know, Levi, this can't and won't be about people calling out other people. Because that isn't evidence. That's religion. I'm as enthused as you. But if we're going to say "this is better" and attempt to defend said position, I need more than enthusiasm. I need double-blind trials.

It's not about religion. It is simply that I know firsthand what I am talking about, and so far, I have yet to hear from the critic, either in person or in print, who has also been there.

Specifically with this subject at this time there are a lot of voices talking down something they have not actually witnessed.

Who is calling out whom?

If someone calls BS on the technique of a bartender who has been working for 45 years, aren't they the "people calling out other people"?

Where has Uyeda-san said that someone else's technique was BS? I'd be curious to see the reference.

I'm not calling anybody out. I'm defending something that I have seen and studied.

There is a difference.

If it happens that Uyeda-san opens up a bar in NYC, as he told me he would, then I think a lot of folks will be less hesitant to criticize.

And Thor, have you had the chance to do a double-blind taste test on Overnoy?
 
I honestly can't follow this sort of revelation and adulation. I can't raise my hands at the revival. I can't take the personality test and send my paycheck to David Miscavige. Sorry.

There's disagreement. There are serious people with serious chops who disagree with another person with serious chops. You want to make it a battle of reputations. It's not about that. It can't be about that. If you think all cocktails other than the hard-shaked suck in relation to the alternative, then say so. I haven't seen you do so, but maybe that's what you believe. But I'm not going to enter into a stupid game about pitching one bartender against another. Because that's not helpful. It gets us nowhere. You haven't done the side-by-side either, have you?

I have no idea what your Overnoy challenge means, other than that you can't abide disagreement, because it's about as relevant to this discussion as a study of tile materials and defensive sets.

But look, this is what it's about: if you think that Pierre Trimbach and Marcel Lapierre can't both make incredible wine, despite the fact that they agree on fuck-all and make choices that the other would find horrifying, or if you think that Bruno Giacosa and Eric Texier can't both make terrific wine, despite their fundamental divergences, then that's your right, but I can't follow where you're headed. Not because I agree or disagree with your reasons for what you believe, but because I think it's a bullshit competition with a result that's only useful for fuckwits who need points and rankings to understand the liquids they put in their mouths. There are multiple paths to enlightenment, and if you're not the Buddha, (which you're not, though I admit your cross-court forehand is a killer despite the floating), you can't specify the authorities and the pretenders by fiat. You're not going to win this argument, with me, by being sarcastic. I'm better at it than you. I've been doing it online since 1986, and I've seen and done everything you could possibly throw at me a zillion times. Make an actual argument, defend it, support it, and show your work. Or say that it's what you believe and people should see for themselves, which is something I'm more than willing to embrace and will explore for myself this fall or whenever I'm in Japan. But don't get sniffy. It doesn't become someone of your standing.
 
originally posted by Thor:
I honestly can't follow this sort of revelation and adulation. I can't raise my hands at the revival. I can't take the personality test and send my paycheck to David Miscavige. Sorry.

There's disagreement. There are serious people with serious chops who disagree with another person with serious chops. You want to make it a battle of reputations. It's not about that. It can't be about that. If you think all cocktails other than the hard-shaked suck in relation to the alternative, then say so. I haven't seen you do so, but maybe that's what you believe. But I'm not going to enter into a stupid game about pitching one bartender against another. Because that's not helpful. It gets us nowhere. You haven't done the side-by-side either, have you?

I have no idea what your Overnoy challenge means, other than that you can't abide disagreement, because it's about as relevant to this discussion as a study of tile materials and defensive sets.

But look, this is what it's about: if you think that Pierre Trimbach and Marcel Lapierre can't both make incredible wine, despite the fact that they agree on fuck-all and make choices that the other would find horrifying, or if you think that Bruno Giacosa and Eric Texier can't both make terrific wine, despite their fundamental divergences, then that's your right, but I can't follow where you're headed. Not because I agree or disagree with your reasons for what you believe, but because I think it's a bullshit competition with a result that's only useful for fuckwits who need points and rankings to understand the liquids they put in their mouths. There are multiple paths to enlightenment, and if you're not the Buddha, (which you're not, though I admit your cross-court forehand is a killer despite the floating), you can't specify the authorities and the pretenders by fiat. You're not going to win this argument, with me, by being sarcastic. I'm better at it than you. I've been doing it online since 1986, and I've seen and done everything you could possibly throw at me a zillion times. Make an actual argument, defend it, support it, and show your work. Or say that it's what you believe and people should see for themselves, which is something I'm more than willing to embrace and will explore for myself this fall or whenever I'm in Japan. But don't get sniffy. It doesn't become someone of your standing.

Thor, this is all you.

You aren't replying to what I said.

I'm going to wait until the morning to reply again in this thread, and maybe that will change the tone of the discussion on both sides. Or maybe it won't.
 
Levi, I return to the gist of my original message...

There are solid tenders who don't buy the hard shake. Their reasons are scientifically justified. I don't take a position, I merely report. I think the cocktail-enjoying portion of the anecdotal research required to study this disagreement is fabulously enjoyable. I don't see how that's worth arguing about.

I see why this is controversial. It's controversial by definition. I don't see why it has to lead to animus. How many times must I repeat the following...? I have no position, I have no position, I have no position, I have no position. I don't know. I just report. When there's a double-blind study, with controls, I'll posit to whatever it reports and defend it to the ends of science. Before then, it's all enthusiasm. I love enthusiasm. I can't possibly defend my vinous enthusiasms with science. I can only proclaim them.

Your excitement about this hard shake has made me enthusiastic. I'm eager to experience it for myself. But there are good, talented, thoughtful bartenders who think it's bullshit. You know: so what? There are good, talented, thoughtful winemakers who think any wine you might now mention is bullshit. You know: so what?

So I will answer each and every one of your questions, explicitly, since this appears to be important:

Who is calling out whom?
I think this is a bullshit battle of reputations, which no one other than your wrestler can win. It's someone at Drink. If we're comparing CVs, obviously your champion wins this round. But I don't see how that's relevant. Surely the cocktail (double-blind created and judged) is the argument, the defense, and the conclusion. Until we all try it and trial it, it's just a contention.

If someone calls BS on the technique of a bartender who has been working for 45 years, aren't they the "people calling out other people"?
Actually, since I have no idea what's going on in the Japanese-language world and I don't suspect that you mean for us to respond to same, I see that it's you that's calling out other people here. That's fine. That's admirable. Calling out the sedentary is worthy. But now we're pitting your argument against those who do and say. In other words, a person who does not do, but says, against those who both do and say. Unless I'm underestimating your mixology skills, in which case I apologize. If not, we're not pitting you in an avatar role against your detractors, but if so, this is a situation in which I'd suggest that you should make your own, non-Tokyo-based, arguments for the technique.

Where has Uyeda-san said that someone else's technique was BS? I'd be curious to see the reference.
If he hasn't, then that's admirable of him, because in my opinion he understands the debate better than either of us. But he, to my knowledge, isn't posting on this forum. You are. And you object, strongly, to the contrary viewpoint. That's fine, but if you're going to advocate to this extent, then you need to own the advocacy. You can't say, "well, it's on him" if you're the one making the controversial contentions. You either need to pass the puck and let him take the shot, or take the shot yourself. But don't pretend you're not playing hockey.

And Thor, have you had the chance to do a double-blind taste test on Overnoy?
This is a non-sequitur. Double-blind against what? For what purpose? For what relevance in the context of this debate?

There, I've answered each of your questions. I hope that's helpful.
 
I think the Politburo should move to strike the following (there could be underage lurkers):

She thinks that the impact of the back-and-forth is superior to the circulatory method, and there was a very long and passionate defense of this position. As I said, I can't adjudicate, I haven't had a true "hard shake"
 
Back
Top