Florida Jim
Florida Jim
" . . . there was an additional veil lifted by not adding the SO2 at bottling."
That is a provactive opinion.
Best, Jim
That is a provactive opinion.
Best, Jim
My understanding of Jules Chauvet's writtings
- Thread starter Brézème
- Start date
Steve Edmunds
Steve Edmunds
I don't know what pHs look like in Beaujolais at harvest (and I would imagine it varies from vintage to vintage), but I know Gamay is a high-acid variety, and most unlikely to be approached, vis a vis ripeness, in the manner most common to California. But I know, too, that when I decide it's time to pick Gamay from the two sites from which I'm making wine, the pHs are low enough (3.1 to 3.3) to make it pretty difficult for the bacteria to get much done. We occasionally will have some bird damage that can introduce some lactobacillus, or some other bugs, but they don't seem to be able to grow a colony. So the addition of SO2 generally doesn't need to be made until after malolactic fermentation is complete and the wine has settled out. I don't think of this as just good luck (and you know I think good luck is important); I had these plantings made where I did because I was thinking about all this stuff.
Provocative it may be, but the truth is clear to most who visit M. Lapierre's cellar. There, we had two samples, one sans soufre, the other sulfured prior to bottling. The difference was quite clear, with the sans soufre being brighter, more clearly delineated than the sulfured wine. We had quite a lengthy discussion about whether the sulfured wine would be distinguishable from the sans soufre after more time in the bottle. It was his contention that, although the two would closely resemble one another, the sans soufre would always retain a greater sense of its fruit.
Mark Lipton
Scott Frank
Scott Frank
Cool. Thanks, Steve. So with Syrah, for instance, could you get away with not adding SO2 before fermentation? In other words, is this strictly a pH thing?
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
But I didn't say anything about terroir. For me, it is as though the SO2 at bottling puts a screen between the taster and the fruit; but one can argue that the screen also acts as a lens to focus what there is more sharply.
You're right, you didn't. I agree with you that it "removes a veil" between the taster and the fruit, as an isolated entity. But I also agree with those that think it might, sometimes, drop some veils between the taster and the terroir. My sense was that Jim was referring to the latter, but he can probably answer for himself.
Steve Edmunds
Steve Edmunds
Scott; I've done lots of Syrah fermentations without SO2. The things I would consider would include pH, and also the overall condition of the fruit (of which pH is one part), the history I may have with the site in previous vintages, whether I'm destemming or not, ambient temperature in which the wine will begin to ferment, and whether or not I have the option to control temperature, and so forth. But a low enough pH can give me a lot of confidence with regard to the other considerations.
Steve Edmunds
Steve Edmunds
Joe; inclusion of stems will raise pH, and a non-destemmed must will tend to start more slowly, extending the period of time when there's no CO2 blanketing the must, which makes for a more hospitable environment for fruit flies, ants, etc...
Mark,
This is not quite my experience.
Except for Allemand bottlings (very specific since the sans souffre and the sulfured bottling don't see the same SO2 after malos, I really never notice a big difference between 0ppm SO2 and less than 20ppm at bottling after 2 or 3 monthes of aging in bottles.
This on hundreds of differents trials from many growers from many terroirs. But of course the wines have to be strictly the same.
And very often the best grapes from the best old vines are dedicated to the sans souffre bottling and since SO2 is totally useless on unclean wines (the SO2 will combines very fast and the remaining free sulfur will be close to 0) most if not all of the sulfured bottlings are kieselghur filtered or fined.
I don't know a single producer who just add, right before bottling, on the exact same wine some SO2 to only some of the bottles.
The only ones I could try were private trials either from me or friends.
Eric
Florida Jim
Florida Jim
Quite a caldron, there.
I do the same thing with dry ice.
Eric, do you just throw it on top of the must or hang it in bags from the side of the vat?
Best, Jim
U
Unknown
Guest
According to Chauvet and this is my feeling too, the first drop of SO2 during or before fermentation is already too much if you want to get 100% of the aromatic complexity that the all the native yeasts could express
didn't chauvet made it clear in one of his book?
he says that sulfur is like a medication. If your harvest is "clean" and your cellar is as well, you don't need any. But he definitely put an emphasis on "clean" fruits and cellars.
Steve Edmunds
Steve Edmunds
Clean cellars reminds me: I sent my older daughter to work a harvest with a friend who was a vigneron in Valras, in 1996. She'd worked a part of the harvest with me, and was amazed to find out there were no fruit flies in Valras, and that sanitation consisted of rinsing with cold water. This was at the cellar of Romain Bouchard, whose wines definitely never struck me as being "unclean." Just another way conditions vary dramatically from one place to another.
Back to Eric's secret planting of Syrah: is it the one that makes you a M-A-V-Eric?
Back to Eric's secret planting of Syrah: is it the one that makes you a M-A-V-Eric?
Steve Edmunds
Steve Edmunds
Eric; what is the size of the vat pictured? How tall? How wide? How many tons of grapes will it hold to ferment? Or kilograms?originally posted by Brzme:
Dry ice is a lot of fun.
I use dry ice to cover the vats twice or three times a day before I get enough CO2 from fermentation.