New Kermit Lynch import Domaine de Gioielli?

[SFJoe]

Claude,

As a monopole vineyard offers a poor opportunity to judge winemaking, an exclusive importation makes it hard to judge markups. My impression of Kermit was formed on wines that had different importers in different geographies, and a renewed comparison would presumably be the way to confirm or refute such an impression.

 

[Claude Kolm]

Joe -- The general rule of thumb is that the wine winds up on the retail shelf at double the cellar door price (there are exceptions either way, of course, but it's the general rule). That's the case as far as I can see for most of Kermit's wines, as it is for the wines of other importers, regardless of whether the importation is exclusive or not. So let's hear lots of counter-examples which we then can examine, and not the self-interested comments of competitors (as I said, largely lacking any foundation) that are repeated without any backing.

I might add that Kermit isn't the only one to suffer from these false whispering campaigns. There are plenty of other examples, such as people who tried to run down the quality of Fritz Haag wines by falsely saying that they weren't any good because they were young vines, when in fact they were old vines (and of topnotch quality).

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

Thanks, Claude, very fair. My comment was not so much based on his prices vis-a-vis prices for the same wines elsewhere; but rather that the wines he sells, at the mid-to-high range (from my perspective) strike me as quite expensive. Perhaps they are also better, and thus worth the tarrif.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Thanks, Claude, very fair. My comment was not so much based on his prices vis-a-vis prices for the same wines elsewhere; but rather that the wines he sells, at the mid-to-high range (from my perspective) strike me as quite expensive. Perhaps they are also better, and thus worth the tarrif.

So Ian, can you show me that Allemand or Clape or Tempier, all of which are considerably more expensive than they were when Kermit started to sell them or even 10 years ago, sell for less in Paris or London or anywhere else? I don't think so.

The truth is, we're in a global environment where the prices for wines of certain producers have gone way up. For the most part, as far as I can see, those producers are the ones who are getting their just shares and more power to them (again, there may be some limited exceptions, notably Coche-Dury, where to sell at the normal markup would be to give a gift to the flippers, but I have no idea what C-D's current prices are from Kermit).

Yes, the wines are expensive, and guess what, the dollar is weak. (And even with the weak dollar, you can still find some amazing wines, such as the $15 Coteaux du Languedoc I had at lunch today. I think that's important -- these importers can no longer bring you Cornas or Bandol at those prices, so they're out to look for the next generation in appellations today as underrated as Bandol and Cornas once were.) I can think of other producers whose wines I like also appear to be quite expensive.

At least one importer in NY, not Joe, who imports a lot of producers this board likes, seems to take higher margins than most, yet no one rags on him. Why not? I still think a lot of this goes back to the wildly green envy of other importers in the 1980s who weren't able to do the job that Kermit was doing, primarily because they all bought through agents as opposed to doing their own homework, and so in lieu of Clape and Allemand and Verset, they promoted Bordeaux-like Cornas and the same for Bandol, and etc., etc. Frankly, that situation has changed, and while Kermit still does an excellent job, there's a significant number of importers who are doing at least an equally good job today as he is (uh, need I add, also many that are not doing a very good job, too?).

 

[SFJoe]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

At least one importer in NY, not Joe, who imports a lot of producers this board likes, seems to take higher margins than most, yet no one rags on him.

Oh, don't say that. There's a lot of ragging going on and he gets his share.

That's a case where there are control importers for things like certain Chinons and so on and there is a bit of transparency.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by SFJoe:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

At least one importer in NY, not Joe, who imports a lot of producers this board likes, seems to take higher margins than most, yet no one rags on him.

Oh, don't say that. There's a lot of ragging going on and he gets his share.

That's a case where there are control importers for things like certain Chinons and so on and there is a bit of transparency.

I don't understand your last sentence. I suspect that we are talking about two different importers (i.e., I think I know whom you are referring to, and it is not the same one to whom I am referring). The one I'm speaking of does import Chinon, but other importers have the same wine under a different name, a fact not generally known.

 

[SFJoe]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by SFJoe:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

At least one importer in NY, not Joe, who imports a lot of producers this board likes, seems to take higher margins than most, yet no one rags on him.

Oh, don't say that. There's a lot of ragging going on and he gets his share.

That's a case where there are control importers for things like certain Chinons and so on and there is a bit of transparency.

I don't understand your last sentence. I suspect that we are talking about two different importers. The one I'm speaking of does import Chinon, but other importers have the same wine under a different name, a fact not generally known.

I'm not a general.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Claude Kolm: The one I'm speaking of does import Chinon, but other importers have the same wine under a different name, a fact not generally known.

If you're talking about Rosenthal and the Chinon Blanc from Olek-Mery/Baudry, I think that fact is generally known around here.

But then again this place is special.

 

[scottreiner]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Claude Kolm: The one I'm speaking of does import Chinon, but other importers have the same wine under a different name, a fact not generally known.

If you're talking about Rosenthal and the Chinon Blanc from Olek-Mery/Baudry, I think that fact is generally known around here.

But then again this place is special.

and the olek-mery/baudry ties have been severed, as i understand it.

 

[SFJoe]

Not just blanc, btw.

 

[Rahsaan]

I guess my knowledge wasn't as special as I thought!

originally posted by SFJoe:
Not just blanc, btw.

What other wines did they share?

 

[scottreiner]

originally posted by Rahsaan:
I guess my knowledge wasn't as special as I thought!

originally posted by SFJoe:
Not just blanc, btw.

What other wines did they share?

i believe that all the olek-mery wines were made by the baudrys. i do not know who is making them now.

 

[Joe Dressner]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Claude Kolm: The one I'm speaking of does import Chinon, but other importers have the same wine under a different name, a fact not generally known.

If you're talking about Rosenthal and the Chinon Blanc from Olek-Mery/Baudry, I think that fact is generally known around here.

But then again this place is special.

Rosenthal recently sent a letter to Olek Mery severing ties with the them.

 

[Joe Dressner]

On the whole, I agree with Claude.

Kermit Lynch was truly the pioneer on the wine route.

Think of all the great names you associate with Kermit: Joguet, Lapierre, Coche-Dury, Raveneau, Humbrecht, Jules Chauvet, Tempier, Vieux Tlgraphe, A. & P. de Villaine, Catherine & Pierre Breton, Chave in Hermitage for so many years, Didier Dagueneau when he started, Clape and Allemand in Cornas, and list could go on and on....

Kermit started this work when there was no e-mail, no faxes, no comprehensive wine guides. The world was a much larger and remote place and Kermit had to do the hard work of visiting the vineyards, meeting the vignerons, and finding authentic products to bring to America.

The man is not a saint and maybe some of his pricing is high. At the same time, he runs a solid import/wholesale and retail operation which takes some money to operate.

I like to work on a more modest scale, but that's a personal choice. Think of how much Kermit has enriched the American wine landscape before carrying on about how much cheaper your Thierry Allemand could be. Just buy it on the grey market like everyone else.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Joe Dressner:
before carrying on about how much cheaper your Thierry Allemand could be. Just buy it on the grey market like everyone else.

Joe -- Forward me those e-mails where Allemand is cheaper than I can get it here!

 

[Ned Hoey]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Ned Hoey recites an old adage that I heard too in the past in SF wine stores.

Claude, I didn't recite an adage, I repeated an old joke. I didn't originate it. It struck me as humor with an edge. Comedians have this thing they do called a "Roast". It's where they show appreciation and even affection for someone by insulting them mercilessly. You should consider it as having been repeated in that spirit. Re-read the posts. You'll notice some went Joe's way too.

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
So please, people like Ned, instead of repeating the malicious comments of stores that buy by WA and WS ratings and by people who can only visit in France when taken by rival importers and don't have to worry about the fact that they can't speak French and have no idea what the cellar door prices are, please give me the facts, because as I said above, what I know by spending a great deal of time in the field, your comments are largely not true.

Again Claude, the defensive reaction is readily apparent. The loyalty is too. That's fine. I'm going to suggest that you took your defense it a little far. You don't know when, where, or who first told me that joke. I seem to have struck a nerve that has existed for you for quite while. Kermit Lynch, an importer I said I respect, isn't also a sacred cow for me as he seems to be for you. He's a businessman and a successful one. Not being in the business, all I have to go on is my accumulated experience in buying wine for 20+years. Steve asked for thoughts, opinions. I offered mine. The wines seem a little pricey to me. That's the reason I wasn't anxious to run to purchase them. I also expressed some skepticism about the necessity of those prices. Just my opinion mind you. No factual claims. Admittedly conjectural. Times are tough at the moment, I thought it was a reasonable opinion to offer. The interests of sellers and those of buyers often don't align perfectly. I also seasoned my comments with some Disorderly snark. Maybe that pushed your button?
I don't post here because I want to get into this kind of shit, I post here because I don't.

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Thanks, Claude, very fair. My comment was not so much based on his prices vis-a-vis prices for the same wines elsewhere; but rather that the wines he sells, at the mid-to-high range (from my perspective) strike me as quite expensive. Perhaps they are also better, and thus worth the tarrif.

So Ian, can you show me that Allemand or Clape or Tempier, all of which are considerably more expensive than they were when Kermit started to sell them or even 10 years ago, sell for less in Paris or London or anywhere else? I don't think so ...

Confused because I thought I'd just said this isn't the point of my earlier remark. I've read Kermit's book in English and French about six times and don't feel that respect is wanting from my side. Many of his wines are expensive.

 

[Yixin]

Aren't there typically 2 cellar door prices - one for retail and one for wholesale? My recollection is that most American retail is, as Claude writes, twice the cellar door retail price. I don't know how much bargaining power each importer has vis-a-vis the winemakers in his portfolio, but the credit terms I've seen have been helpful for importers' operating margin. Most of this experience is in Germany, of course, so might not apply across the border.