Hank Beckmeyer
Hank Beckmeyer
Is this because most terroirs do not speak loudly enough? Or does the natural winemaking technique (for lack of a better phrase) actually obscure?
Munjebel 4 Arancione
- Thread starter Ned Hoey
- Start date
Is this because most terroirs do not speak loudly enough? Or does the natural winemaking technique (for lack of a better phrase) actually obscure?
I'm not sure most terroir really has that much to say. Especially the basic land many young natural winemakers end up using. But, even if their specific vineyards don't have complex expresssions, the similarities across regions and grapes is what horrifies me the most.
But this seems to play a big role as well. Carbonic maceration and no sulfur is a formula for generic results just like 200% new oak. I thought this point has been generally accepted for several years now.
Of course I'm not a winemaker and don't have firsthand experience with this stuff. I'm just an interested observer wondering out loud.
I always found it interesting that terroir sets the ceiling on a wine's potential. I have heard Eric's theory before that there are some terroirs that are so inherently good, they can't be screwed up. But, Clos St. Hune and CFE must be exceptions being used to establish a rule? Or perhaps I misunderstood his argument.
I'm not a burgundy expert by any means, but people seem to have issues with Dominique Laurent's oak treatment, and that producer has access to fruit from good terroir, correct? Not trying to start an argument; I just find Eric's perspective interesting and would like to explore it more.
Levi Dalton
Levi Dalton
It is surprising to me that after putting together multiple dinners exploring the subject of orange wines and amphora wines, and having people from around the world come and see how broad and differentiated the wines can be, that one still hears things like "all of those wines taste the same" or "that kind of winemaking obliterates terroir expression."
It was incredibly clear during the NY orange wine dinner (which included Cornelissen) how different from others each offering was. The same happened during the amphora dinner. It is impossible to miss the differences between Lispida and Vodopivec when you put the glasses side by side, which is what we did. Likewise, nobody would confuse Guttarolo's Primitivo aged in clay with COS' Cerasuolo aged in clay. Different grapes, different place, and it showed.
As regard terroir expression, I would cite as Exhibit A the Gravner vertical from the amphora dinner: there were substantial differences between the '01, '02, and '03 Ribolla, and those differences were mirrored in the '01, '02, and '03 Breg. Clearly the conditions of the vintages were not obscured.
You may not enjoy the flavors associated with "vin naturel" or wines who see elevage in amphora. So be it, different strokes and all. You may find the price tag for such wines to be too high, although there are plenty of reasonably priced examples. But to dismiss the categories outright as somehow not worthy strikes me as a stark embodiment of the whole "I don't personally like it so it is not at all worthy of anyone's interest" mindset that also guides the point givers.
If Ned has an interest in the wines and you don't, just pass up the thread. No need for indictments.
Also, the 1994 Dom. Laurent Clos de Beze was one of the more delicious wines I have had in 2009.
It was incredibly clear during the NY orange wine dinner (which included Cornelissen) how different from others each offering was. The same happened during the amphora dinner. It is impossible to miss the differences between Lispida and Vodopivec when you put the glasses side by side, which is what we did. Likewise, nobody would confuse Guttarolo's Primitivo aged in clay with COS' Cerasuolo aged in clay. Different grapes, different place, and it showed.
As regard terroir expression, I would cite as Exhibit A the Gravner vertical from the amphora dinner: there were substantial differences between the '01, '02, and '03 Ribolla, and those differences were mirrored in the '01, '02, and '03 Breg. Clearly the conditions of the vintages were not obscured.
You may not enjoy the flavors associated with "vin naturel" or wines who see elevage in amphora. So be it, different strokes and all. You may find the price tag for such wines to be too high, although there are plenty of reasonably priced examples. But to dismiss the categories outright as somehow not worthy strikes me as a stark embodiment of the whole "I don't personally like it so it is not at all worthy of anyone's interest" mindset that also guides the point givers.
If Ned has an interest in the wines and you don't, just pass up the thread. No need for indictments.
Also, the 1994 Dom. Laurent Clos de Beze was one of the more delicious wines I have had in 2009.
To respond to some earlier comments:
Terroir expression is little bit difficult for me to ascertain with authority when it comes to this. What are the contextual references? Other Etna wines? My experience with those is pretty modest, but it is extensive enough to know that no else makes their wines in the same way at all AFAIK. Is FC truly revealing the terroir by his methods? Are the others? There's a confluence of a number of things here: terroir, varieties, style, method, vintage. The interplay of these variables is an equation that equals out to this wine. Terroir is something that forms the basis of a wine but isn't and can't be the everything the wine is. All the FC wines I've opened so far seem to me to be quite infused with the unique black soil tannic structure and cool climate high altitude fruits that I take to be defining of the Etna terroir. It's been very consistent. What I see from the others seems mild in comparison. But then those are made by more conventional methods.
Sure, OK, but I don't think so in this case.
You got me scratching my head with that. Every time I open one of his wines, for the first 30-60 mins, they're screechy, electrified, nervous, angular, disjointed etc. the next hour sees them calm down, take shape, smooth out, eventually after 90-120 mins they reach a serene mellowness and that's the real destination.
Oh and just for the reference point it provides this bottle cost me $29 + $3 shipping.
Terroir expression is little bit difficult for me to ascertain with authority when it comes to this. What are the contextual references? Other Etna wines? My experience with those is pretty modest, but it is extensive enough to know that no else makes their wines in the same way at all AFAIK. Is FC truly revealing the terroir by his methods? Are the others? There's a confluence of a number of things here: terroir, varieties, style, method, vintage. The interplay of these variables is an equation that equals out to this wine. Terroir is something that forms the basis of a wine but isn't and can't be the everything the wine is. All the FC wines I've opened so far seem to me to be quite infused with the unique black soil tannic structure and cool climate high altitude fruits that I take to be defining of the Etna terroir. It's been very consistent. What I see from the others seems mild in comparison. But then those are made by more conventional methods.
Sure, OK, but I don't think so in this case.
You got me scratching my head with that. Every time I open one of his wines, for the first 30-60 mins, they're screechy, electrified, nervous, angular, disjointed etc. the next hour sees them calm down, take shape, smooth out, eventually after 90-120 mins they reach a serene mellowness and that's the real destination.
Oh and just for the reference point it provides this bottle cost me $29 + $3 shipping.
Hank Beckmeyer
Hank Beckmeyer
Cornelissen's wines seem to me to be made about as non-interventionist as one could hope. But aren't they always identifiable as "Cornelissen"? (I'm asking; I don't have the vast experience with them that others here do).
maybe its kinda like Jackson Pollock vs. his imitators: You can always pick out the Pollock, there's so much of him in there.
At any rate, it makes me happy that someone like Frank is making wines the way he does.
maybe its kinda like Jackson Pollock vs. his imitators: You can always pick out the Pollock, there's so much of him in there.
At any rate, it makes me happy that someone like Frank is making wines the way he does.
I thought the direction of this thread shifted towards discussing natural wines in general and not the specific niche of orange wines.
At least that is what I was talking about. But even then it is of course an oversimplification to say that 'all those wines taste the same'.
That said, while not having been present at your orange wine dinners, I have tasted too many natural wines from France where the regime of carbonic maceration and no sulfur lost the cepage and the terroir.
Not for everyone of course. But for too many. If this doesn't apply to Cornelissen, all the better.
Cory Cartwright
Cory Cartwright
I don't think anyone was suggesting that all natural wines taste the same, just that natural winemaking can oftentimes mask the expression just as surely as spoofed wines. An Olivier Cousin drank last week was a perfect example of this phenomenon as it didn't speak to anything, terroir or otherwise besides the winemaking employed. I can give other examples, but I can also give examples to support the other notion (Overnoy-Houillon being my go to wine everytime on this one). I find the whole discussion fascinating is all, and not having drank a Cornelissen I enjoyed all that much, it's even more interesting.
Joel Stewart
Joel Stewart
Thanks, Ned...I will look for some of those characters. I've not yet had any FC yet, but have a Contadino 6 lined up to pop in the next couple of days. I like your idea proposed for handling and decanting, so I will do it that way this time and see how things go. I've also had a few orange wines along with other oxidized types of wines...that style (if you can call it a singular style, probably not) does not scare me off...and I've had some good to amazing wines in that category...nothing outright bad. I like that VLM asked the question, but it seems the answer (relating back to Levi's comment) can only come from consistent tastings of this and other local wine makers' wines, to really assess a terroir connection. I've had a few Etna's before (mostly la Calabretta, a so called traditional producer, whose wines i enjoy) so - while knowing Cornelissen is riding a different sort of wave here- this Contadino I have will be interesting to try.
By the way, isn't the WD disorder symbol a Cornelissen rosso? It's got the clear glass...
Levi Dalton
Levi Dalton
I think that in the cases of the single variety wines from Cornelissen that I have had - which is to say Munjebel 4 and 5 Rosso - that it is clear, at least to me, that it is Nerello from Etna in the glass. Nerello from Etna is something I am pretty familiar with, across a number of producers, so it may possibly be somewhat more noticeable to myself and others that likewise drink such wines every day.
I did a side by side of 2007 Terre Nere Guardiola Etna Rosso and Munjebel 5 Rosso the other day for the staff. I really thought it was an illuminating comparison/contrast.
Keep in mind that Terre Nere and Passopisciaro and possibly others seem to be using partial carbonic as well.
I did have a straight Nero d'Avola from Cornelissen that I also thought was true to the grape variety, if perhaps the site was less reflected in the glass.
I did a side by side of 2007 Terre Nere Guardiola Etna Rosso and Munjebel 5 Rosso the other day for the staff. I really thought it was an illuminating comparison/contrast.
Keep in mind that Terre Nere and Passopisciaro and possibly others seem to be using partial carbonic as well.
I did have a straight Nero d'Avola from Cornelissen that I also thought was true to the grape variety, if perhaps the site was less reflected in the glass.
Jim Hanlon
Jim Hanlon
Sharon Bowman
Sharon Bowman
Double blech.
"Terroir," begone!
Levi,
I cannot share your enthousiasm for some of these so called natural wines as far as terroir expression is concerned and I don't think I am one of these natural winemaker hunters you find on a lot of wine boards especially in France.
But I'll try to explain my personnal trouble with some of these wines regarding terroir expression.
To me, they seem to be part of the late Baroque aesthetic movement : Very luxious style I would call "noisy" : the noise of ornamentation is much bigger, for my palate of course, than the core signal of terroir.
I discussed above this with F. Cornelissen in London last year, and he was very clear about being bored by focused precise wine like say Clos Saint Hune. He described me DRC wines as poor in sensation for his taste, too monodimensional. So where I see some razor sharp precision of terroir expression without any "noisy" signal, FC sees monastic austerity far from the abundant sensations his instinct tells him that a wine should show.
And in my mind this "noise of taste" is usually very typical of the winemaker, the technique and the grape expression through terroir.
Morgon is the the place I know the best for illustrating this :
The wine from foillard or lapierre are more baroque to me than the ones from descombes or thevenet (when not spoiled by brett) themselves still more "noisy" than the ones from chamonard which is the epitome of Morgon terroir expression for my taste (though probably the more "natural" especially in terms of SO2 use).
But foillard is obviously no fleurie nor chiroubles. And though typical of nauport interpretation of Chauvet, typically gamay for beaujolais. So no way in my mind these wines, as long as they not fucked by lazy winemaking, are so "noisy" that the terroir signal is totally burried in the noise.
I drink as much foillard as descombes or chamonard - quite a bit in fact.
And with a lot of pleasure but I really don't see any of the Baroque wines as a text book terroir driven morgon, if you want to dig deeply into the very detailed nuances of the terroir in Morgon, like Chamonard definitely is.
Should the chase of these nuances the ultimate goal of wine appreciation?
Well everyone has his own answer, and I really don't see why I cannot say that I have the feeling that a lot of these supranatural wines are too loose in term of precision for my poor little palate to decode, in nuances, the terroir signal.
Which doesn't mean they all taste the same or are all atypical of their provenance. But a lot are, like for any kind of wine, natural or not.
Bonne anne tous
Eric
Florida Jim
Florida Jim
The "noise of taste;" an expression worthy of consideration.
Best, Jim
Best, Jim
Joel Stewart
Joel Stewart
I think I just got maybe a few years of education packed into one post. Thanks a lot, Eric.
Maybe this post wasn't directed at me, but your reply is,at best, tangentially related to terroir expression.
If you are stipulating that there are not examples where this type of approach to winemaking results in a sameness over wines from different terroirs, you really need to go to the Dive Bouteille.
You are clearly using the word terroir in an idiosyncratic and non-standard way.
In case you haven't noticed, this is a wine forum where people exchange views. At it's best, this exchange of views, like a graduate seminar, percolates as people try out their ideas on others and things move around. Sometimes thing move subtly and sometimes not at all but, in the end, something interesting can happen.
Since you seem not to have read my post, I've quoted the parts here where I clearly state I like many of these wines but I question what I find to be extreme versions and I am ASKING where these wines fit. Are they jst a fashion or are they getting at something deeper? If they aren't really capturing terroir, as I think many of us at the dinners suspect, then how do we think about them? These are open questions for me that I don't yet have answers to and I am genuinely interested in others viewpoints.
If you just want reification or sycophancy, stick to conditions where you can control who is there and who is allowed to have opinions. You clearly aren't interested in discussing things with people who have views different from your own. It might get lonely in there, but at least everyone will get it.
Good for you. My most successful Laurent wines have been Clos St. Jacques and Les St. Georges.