Munjebel 4 Arancione

That I was not alone in my assessment, Eric, Cory, and Micheal shared a similar view.

I still don't understand why we are not allowed to have a view like this. We paid our money, we enjoyed ourselves immensely, we thanked you profusely for putting the whole thing together, but it's just not enough. We have to tow the line too?

Either that or we "don't get it"?
 
Are the other Trimbach cuvees spoofy? I thought Trimbach was generally considered a pretty worthwhile producer, and not just CFE and Clos St. Hune.

Though I did hear that Clos St. Hune, at the very least, is vinified in a different manner than Trimbach's other wines.
It is -- to take Victor's preferred tone for a moment -- a constant amazement to me that Trimbach can get any work done at harvest time, what with all these people standing around their vineyards and cellar observing and recording everything they do.

Trimbach is not Cornelissen. But neither is Trimbach the Caves d'Eguisheim. Their major "spoof" would, I guess, be picking (some) of their grapes earlier than others to preserve acidity in a region where that's not so easy anymore. I don't think their yeast work falls into the fundamentalist* camp either. [*Sorry, I seem to be channeling Victor yet again. I'll stop soon.] Other than that, there's really nothing unusual about their winemaking. As for their viticulture, there seems to be inordinate angst that they once used a helicopter to do something that most people do from a tractor or a horse, and that a purist wouldn't have done at all. Well, OK, maybe they shouldn't have done that, but it hardly seems to move them into Frog's Leap territory. One of the ways one recognizes the Clos Ste-Hune from its surroundings -- which isn't easy without a map, and they're spectacularly un-eager to provide such, which leads to a lot of nitwit conspiracy theories inexplicably promulgated by one well-known Alsatian producer and spread across the internet by their biggest American fan who also happens to be a friend of the family -- is the immediate improvement in health but also in precision vis--vis their neighbors' vines. This is less easily seen across the Geisberg-Eichberg arc, since their neighbors appear to do better vineyard work up there.

The contention that they're somehow limiting their allegedly superior terroir rests on a decided lack of evidence if you look at a Rosacker, Geisberg, and Eichberg from any other producer. It would be interesting to see one of their neighbors work in what I guess must be the preferred way -- which I suppose would be Frick (ugh, far too many failures) or Binner (better) -- to see what the contrast would be, but none, to my knowledge, are. That said, we're no more going to know if the Clos Ste-Hune is reaching its potential than we are anyone else's monopole. The vineyards that supply the CFE, CdSdR Gewurztraminer, and Rserve Personnelle Pinot Gris are not, except in the usual very minor ways, terroir-differentiated from their neighbors, and so there we can make a comparison. Kientzler does some pretty good work, but not at Trimbach's level. There are other good wines, but just that: good. Not better. And of course there's mediocrity.

I suspect that a lot of Trimbach's image issues come from their phenomenally successful ngociant wines, which are (usually, not always) fine, but neither standout wines nor meant to be. (I also think their value proposition, which used to be formidable, is a lot sketchier now that most of them have crested $20 in some markets.) If Trimbach made nothing other than the gold-label (i.e. grand cru) and above wines, they'd be judged more kindly. But that's a guess, and obviously there's no way to prove it. If I trusted scores, those would support the assertion, but I don't.
 
Oh, dear.

(Escalating fight, thankfully not about Trimbach, redacted.)

Can we not do this in public? Please? I mean, sure, who doesn't love a good rubberneck, but...
 
originally posted by Brzme: I drink as much foillard as descombes or chamonard - quite a bit in fact. And with a lot of pleasure but I really don't see any of the Baroque wines as a text book terroir driven morgon, if you want to dig deeply into the very detailed nuances of the terroir in Morgon, like Chamonard definitely is.

Thanks for the comments. I was just discussing on another wine board how I love Morgon and since I started drinking Morgon with Foillard and Lapierre they are the ones that define the appellation for me. Especially since I like their style better than the more structured wines of people like Burgaud.

But I don't really have any way of knowing which style is more 'true' to the appellation. So, will definitely make a point to try Chamonard when I get the chance.
 
I'll take issue with Eric, since it seems that nobody ever picks on him.

It's a great idea, the notion of a terroir signal, but there are two primary objections:

1. What is part of the core signal and what is just noise? E.g. just had a '61 Drouhin Chambertin which I thought was adulterated but nonetheless was quite typical of an older Burgunday (e.g. I went for '64 from the Vosne, others were even closer). I don't know Morgon well enough, but I know enough about the viticultural and cellar practices of the primary proponents (ex Joh. Jos. Prm) of, say, the Graacher Himmelreich to be able to place them in some order of 'naturalness'. The wines are all over the place in terms of terroir expression, to my palate. And often the one with the clearest terroir expression is not the tastiest, young or aged.

2. Cepage (and clones), the other monster in the room. I don't have a solid reference to back this up, but my impression of pre-'45 claret is that cabernet franc was a larger proportion of the blend than cabernet sauvignon, on both banks. It coincides with my preferences for the wines - I certainly like older Bordeaux better, and especially cabernet franc-heavy wines/vintages. I think there's an argument to be made that what one might think of as terroir's core signal is cepage/clone-dependent. For clones/vine selections, New Zealand Pinot Noir and South African Sauvignon Blanc come to mind.

Although I did have a 2004 Larmandier-Bernier yesterday which was delicious and terroiristic.
 
I find myself agreeing with much of what's been said above, some of it ostensibly in contradiction.

And while I fear my loins are insufficiently girded to join this fray, I'll offer a few observations.

Last night I had Occhipinti '07 Frappato, Panevino '07 Ogu (Canonau from Sardinia's Gianfranco Manca), and a Thalassitis Assyrtico open side by side, and for other recent examples, I'll single out bottles of Massavecchia La Querciola, Coturri Sandocino, Paolo Bea Sagrantino, Lemelson's Meyer vineyard, and Eric's St. Gervais.

Some of the above certainly fall into the "supernatural" category. Especially in warmer climate/vintage areas, I get a distinctive baking spice and orange peel aroma that I assume is an artifact of spontaneous yeasts and perhaps warmer fermentation temps.

But there were other ties, too- the varietal thread could be traced between Eric's Grenache and the Canonau and you could find volcanic island terroir in the all three of last nights wines (Occhipinti, Panevino, Thalassitis). And I find some of the same volcanic funk in various jory-soil Oregonians, such as the Lemelson.

That said, I see Eric's point about the signal-to-noise ratio. But I wonder about "baroque." It's a chicken and egg question for me.
 
I'll take issue with Eric, since it seems that nobody ever picks on him.
Ahem.

Apropos both your arguments, I maintain the 3,14 tastes as much like an aged Felton Road Block 3 as it does Morgon CdP. Yet it's a superb wine, and doesn't taste unlike a Morgon CdP either. Terroir, supernatural, or both? It's hard to say, and I'm not entirely sure why the answer matters.
 
originally posted by Brzme:
To me, they seem to be part of the late Baroque aesthetic movement : Very luxious style I would call "noisy" : the noise of ornamentation is much bigger, for my palate of course, than the core signal of terroir.

Should the chase of these nuances the ultimate goal of wine appreciation?
Eric

Well, to focus on the signal of the thread, my experience is far less than yours as far as the broad subject of natural wines in France. So, sticking with Cornelissen, I see neither focused precision nor noisy baroque flourishes. What I get is the grapes, from the place, that year, in a form that is still living and breathing. If at the moment of bottling, his assessment is that the goal has been attained successfully, really all that remains is the wines be scrupulously transported to end purchasers, which was accomplished.

Like any pursuit attempted by many individuals, there will be wide divergence in talent, skills, style,
and success, both real and perceived. "Natural" winemaking is no exception. In my view, as a philosophy
or genre of wine production, it offers the highest possible potential to achieve the goals I hope to find in wine. Not just for the product but for the planet. That isn't to say that only dogmatic extremists
are acceptable to me, just that I expect to see some of the best results from the most talented people working that way.

The wine world is vast and true vin naturel does need to be everyones goals. I would hope to see an end to industrial type practices in wine production generally as in all agriculture.
 
originally posted by Yixin:
I'll take issue with Eric, since it seems that nobody ever picks on him.

1. What is part of the core signal and what is just noise?

2. Cepage (and clones), the other monster in the room.

Yixin,

I just have to agree.

I see cepage adequation as part of terroir.
I think that the level of noise that become so disturbing that one cannot identify the terroir signal is very personnal.
Ned has obviously a much higher tolerance to hypernatural noise than I have.
Same for RMP and high ripeness/extraction and oak taste.

But would you agree that it seems reasonable to place Von Schubbert, Mugnier or Trimbach at one end of the spectrum and Cornellissen, Robineau or Peyra at the other?

Again I drink as much wine from both families. But in terms of sensual experience it is like going from "Pierrot le Fou" to "Las Vegas Parano" in terms of films
 
originally posted by Ned Hoey:
"Natural" winemaking is no exception. In my view, as a philosophy
or genre of wine production, it offers the highest possible potential to achieve the goals I hope to find in wine. Not just for the product but for the planet.

Ned,

Honestly, I have to admit that making wine makes no sense in terms of ecology. The environmental cost is huge for a totally useless production for the planet.
So drinking supernatural in order to save the planet is like sorting garbage in occidental countries when we use 10 times more fossil energy than the mean human being on this planet. Occidental rich people self satisfaction (and I am part of this of course, at both end of the rope).

And again, there are no direct relation between what is done in the vineyard and what is done in the cellar. Most of the hypernatural winemakers I know are limited in terms of agricultural perspectives when you compare them with people like Didier Barrouillet, if I have to give a name.
I have noticed that vinegrowers in general aren't among the sharpest people on earth when it comes to innovative alternative agriculture...
 
But would you agree that it seems reasonable to place Von Schubbert, Mugnier or Trimbach at one end of the spectrum and Cornellissen, Robineau or Peyra at the other?

Well, yes. I don't think one needs to go as far as Peyra; I've had very disappointing wines from so many - Cousin, Robinot, etc.
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
originally posted by Rahsaan:
Too much of natural wine from too diverse a range of terroirs and grapes tastes too similar.
I don't recall seeing you post notes on these wines before. Did I miss them?

I've posted notes on many 'natural' wines over the years. I wouldn't call myself an expert, but I've had a decent amount of exposure (especially to the Loire versions).
 
I can't believe that, with all of the persnickety posters on this board, I had to read all the way down to Thor's first post to find someone correctly referring to Trimbach's luxury cuvee - it's clos stE hune. (Can't figure out how to underline here so the cap will have to do.)
 
originally posted by Brzme:
Honestly, I have to admit that making wine makes no sense in terms of ecology. The environmental cost is huge for a totally useless production for the planet.

The list of human activity not vital is long indeed. It isn't that mindful practices could save the planet, it's that quality potential increases and harm decreases. A very small part of a very big picture, true.

I suspect a far greater difference would be made from innovating ways of bulk shipping and distribution.
The production, shipment and disposal or recycling of all the glass and the bottles uses vast amounts of energy, non of it essential of course. Still, if we really wanted to, we could move a lot of wine around using far less energy than we do now.

Since we're unlikely to do what is needed to alter the current harmful direction of climate trends, just how long will it be before southern Europe becomes the North Sahara anyway?
 
originally posted by Dagan:
originally posted by guilhaume:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:

6) Illegal substances at the restaurant

Dickweed?
Isn't it still legal in NYC?

I hear they growing some In new jersey, could you get some for me and thor?
Vlm doesn't share his apparently, i had no idea he was carrying some in nyc!!
No fucking class Nathan!!
 
originally posted by Ned Hoey:
originally posted by Brzme:
Honestly, I have to admit that making wine makes no sense in terms of ecology. The environmental cost is huge for a totally useless production for the planet.

The list of human activity not vital is long indeed. It isn't that mindful practices could save the planet, it's that quality potential increases and harm decreases. A very small part of a very big picture, true.

I suspect a far greater difference would be made from innovating ways of bulk shipping and distribution.
The production, shipment and disposal or recycling of all the glass and the bottles uses vast amounts of energy, non of it essential of course. Still, if we really wanted to, we could move a lot of wine around using far less energy than we do now.

Since we're unlikely to do what is needed to alter the current harmful direction of climate trends, just how long will it be before southern Europe becomes the North Sahara anyway?

I dunno. We've been trying to concoct substances to get us fucked up for as long as we've been a species. Wine is probably the most elegant of these substances. It has value.

I hear, though, that dickweed is becoming popular.
 
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