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Red Wine & Fish
- Thread starter Jay Miller
- Start date
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
originally posted by VS:
Ha, ha. See, in Spain we eat a lot of fish - about 105 lbs per capita/year, vs. 16 lbs in the United States. This also means that we eat a much larger variety of fish than in the US, particularly fatty fish with their healthy Omega-3 fatty acids, and that does include those strange things I've listed and many more - including red mullet, turbot, sea trout, baby eels, conger eel, leer fish, gaucus... So - yes, we are constantly pairing fish with all types of wine. We do it at least as much as the Portuguese do, and a lot more than the other two big fish consuming countries, Japan and Norway.
Conclusions?
Levi Dalton
Levi Dalton
originally posted by Yixin:
V et S saignee de sorbee with winter omakase, kyushu-dominated. Oh yes.
V et S Saignee de Sorbee. Oh yes.
Nothing is set in stone. Thinking about this discussion, I had lunch today with a friend who knows wine and fish at Kabuki Wellington - which recently became the first Asian-inspired restaurant in Spain which the Michelin guide deigned to reward with one star - and we did it with two bottles of wine, one a basic Robert Weil riesling trocken 2007 and the other a relatively low-tannin Spanish red with good acidity, a syrah-garnacha tintorera-garnacha tinta blend, also 2007. One obvious conclusion with raw fish is that reds are useless with nigiri and other types of sushi because of the vinegar, but with a number of sashimis made with fatty fish (particularly a remarkable tuna otoro and also some horse mackerel sashimi served with crackling red mullet skins) the red went like a song. Raw fish is pretty extreme, of course - it's easier for red wine with the savory, 'umami' elements in more traditionally European fish stews and sauced dishes such as a Basque marmitako (a fishermen's stew of albacore tuna, bell peppers and potatoes), a scarlet shrimp paella, a Portuguese bacalhau dourado (minced cod fish, egg, shoestring potatoes) or a Sicilian anguilla in umido (a stew of eel with a tomato, onion and parsley sauce),originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Conclusions?
Christian Miller (CMM)
Christian Miller
I too missed that earlier thread. I consider it balderdash... The fact is that fatty fishes (the kinds of fish with more than 5% fat, as opposed to lean fish which has about 2%) go well with tannins, as do fatty meats such as well-marbled steak. In Spain we often drink red wines, preferably not overwhelmingly tannic of course, with such fish as bluefin tuna....
Given all the variables at work - individual palates with the varying experience, distribution of receptors, thresholds of perception; the varying ingredients and preparation methods in so many fish recipes; and all the factors mentioned here - I am surprised than anyone would make a generalization on the topic.Personally, I've always thought red wine with fish was balderdash. Maybe if there is enough acid in the red it might work.
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
I too missed that earlier thread. I consider it balderdash... The fact is that fatty fishes (the kinds of fish with more than 5% fat, as opposed to lean fish which has about 2%) go well with tannins, as do fatty meats such as well-marbled steak. In Spain we often drink red wines, preferably not overwhelmingly tannic of course, with such fish as bluefin tuna....
Given all the variables at work - individual palates with the varying experience, distribution of receptors, thresholds of perception; the varying ingredients and preparation methods in so many fish recipes; and all the factors mentioned here - I am surprised than anyone would make a generalization on the topic.Personally, I've always thought red wine with fish was balderdash. Maybe if there is enough acid in the red it might work.
Well, levels of generalization are useful. In general, I think red wines with fish is a bad idea. I just don't do it and have found that it rarely works.
Outliers and exceptions notwithstanding.
Also, the report of the article implied a specific chemical reaction was taking place.
I'm surprised someone would be so reductionist.
originally posted by VLM:
Well, levels of generalization are useful. In general, I think red wines with fish is a bad idea. I just don't do it and have found that it rarely works.
I must admit to siding with the Monkey here. The number of foods that pair well with red wines abound, so why try pairing with fish? Even pescevegetarians have a decent number of red wine options. There are, of course, exceptions, such as preparations that fit better with red than white wines, but I see no point in trying to find a red to pair with most of the fish dishes that I eat when there are so many fish-friendly whites out there.
YMMV etc. etc.
Mark Lipton
originally posted by MLipton: I see no point in trying to find a red to pair with most of the fish dishes that I eat when there are so many fish-friendly whites out there.
My reason is that after having white wine with the first course I often want red wine with the main fish course. When that whole multiple course aspect of dining is relevant. For most fish meals at home, white is fine.
Chris Weber
Chris Weber
Well, I certainly have enjoyed plenty of red wine with fish, but of course if the bottle jumps when I switch my electromagnet on, I usually pick something different.
nigel groundwater
nigel groundwater
Well whether it is balderdash one way or the other the 'old' rule of thumb allowed James Bond in From Russia with Love to spot the Russian villain masquerading as another Double 0 agent - because he ordered red wine with his fish as they dined together on the train.
James Bond: "Red wine with fish. Well that should have told me something."
Donald "Red" Grant: "You may know the right wines, but you're the one on your knees. How does it feel old man?"
Admittedly it was with a Dover sole IIRC. :)
James Bond: "Red wine with fish. Well that should have told me something."
Donald "Red" Grant: "You may know the right wines, but you're the one on your knees. How does it feel old man?"
Admittedly it was with a Dover sole IIRC. :)
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
originally posted by VS:
Nothing is set in stone....
Thank you.
originally posted by Clarke B.:
Interesting that the Alpine grape Humagne came up, as I had a revelatory pairing of fish soup and Torrette--a blend of native Alpine red varities--the other night.
Fuck you newbie.
Scott Kraft
Scott Kraft
Don't worry about the monkey. As Thor would say, he's got Torrette's syndrome.
originally posted by Clarke B.:
I missed you last weekend, too, ass face. Are you still holding a grudge over the corked Barthod?
Without a doubt, you are to blame.
I forget, but never forgive.
Christian Miller (CMM)
Christian Miller
Despite my pedantic quibbling, my palate tends to agree with you. For me, the three main exceptions (that prove the rule?) are:originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
I too missed that earlier thread. I consider it balderdash... The fact is that fatty fishes (the kinds of fish with more than 5% fat, as opposed to lean fish which has about 2%) go well with tannins, as do fatty meats such as well-marbled steak. In Spain we often drink red wines, preferably not overwhelmingly tannic of course, with such fish as bluefin tuna....
Given all the variables at work - individual palates with the varying experience, distribution of receptors, thresholds of perception; the varying ingredients and preparation methods in so many fish recipes; and all the factors mentioned here - I am surprised than anyone would make a generalization on the topic.Personally, I've always thought red wine with fish was balderdash. Maybe if there is enough acid in the red it might work.
Well, levels of generalization are useful. In general, I think red wines with fish is a bad idea. I just don't do it and have found that it rarely works.
Outliers and exceptions notwithstanding.
--grilled or seared rare tuna (nice with all kinds of red wine, especially if coated in spices);
--the aforementioned preparations with sweet peppers, garlic, tomatoes, herbs (but rose' beckons);
-- grilled salmon (yes my Oregon friends, it does go with Pinot). But we tend to serve salmon poached and much prefer delicate whites with that.
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
Despite my pedantic quibbling, my palate tends to agree with you. For me, the three main exceptions (that prove the rule?) are:
This is really my point.
I deserve any pedantry that comes my way, for sure.
I rarely eat any of those three things you mentioned. The 2nd is a rose prep as you said, and the other two just don't come from here.