FOCI

Florida Jim

Florida Jim

Florida Jim
France, Oregon, Chile, Italy . . .

2007 Dom. Ppire, Muscadet Granite de Clisson:
I do not believe that one can do better in the AOC and I am certain it is one of the great white wines of the world at a case price of less than $20/bottle. Steel, Fuji apple, rain-water and lemon cream on the nose; similar in the mouth with amazing concentration and breadth, terrific acids, depth, balance and verve; enormous length. 12% alcohol. This wine is alive!

1999 Thomas, Pinot Noir:
Lightweight, silken, translucent, fruit filed, complex, bright and really, really long. An extraordinarily beautiful wine that carries its place and its pedigree in such a way as to make me wish I had bought a lot more. One of the longest finishes of any pinot and a delight to drink. Dianes exact quote; its one of those wines where you wish the bottle held more. Superb.

2006 Ona, Malbec Anakena:
14.5% on the label (but Id guess at least a point higher), made by A.F. Iris S.A. Requinoa of Chile (but thats in the fine print on the back). If you like Bryant Family or Colgin or any of those big assed, frighteningly expansive CA cabs., this is for you. At $18, you can buy cases of this for the price of a single bottle and its remarkably similar. A full, milk-shake texture that, while it could be from anywhere, is choked full of broad fruit and chocolate flavors and would make a great substitute for a cocktail. No overt oak (but lots of influence), plenty of ultra-ripe dark fruit, low acid and a mouth-feel that was built out of down comforters. Seriously, if you like the cult cab. style, try this wine. It is a dead ringer and really is made to their spec. Impressive, albeit not for me.

2008 Caleo, Salice Salentino:
13%; mostly negromaro; smells of black fruit and licorice; tastes similar but is just a bit to bitter to be enjoyable on its own fine with food, but neither Diane or I care for it without. About $8.

Best, Jim
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:

2007 Dom. Ppire, Muscadet Granite de Clisson:
I do not believe that one can do better in the AOC and I am certain it is one of the great white wines of the world at a case price of less than $20/bottle. Steel, Fuji apple, rain-water and lemon cream on the nose; similar in the mouth with amazing concentration and breadth, terrific acids, depth, balance and verve; enormous length. 12% alcohol. This wine is alive.
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It is nice to hear that this is drinking well.
I have a bottle of it ready in the drinking queue.

When the 2005 version of this was released, the first bottle I had was very shut down. I think I missed the early drinking window. Has anyone tried the 2005 version lately?

What did you have to eat with the Granite de Clisson wine?
I always enjoy reading your descriptions of the food pairings with the wine.

One other question, if I may.
I have seen other wine makers label their Muscadet with Granite de Clisson.
Is this a single vineyard that they share, or is it a reference to vines grown on granite containing soil, or something else?
 
originally posted by Marc D:One other question, if I may.
I have seen other wine makers label their Muscadet with Granite de Clisson.
Is this a single vineyard that they share, or is it a reference to vines grown on granite containing soil, or something else?
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My understanding was that it referred to old vines in granite soil and then a long elevage sur lie. I don't know how codified it is that these wines have to undergo the same process, but it seems to be the common theme.

Not sure if it is technically the same thing, but over the Christmas holidays I had the 05 Luneau Papin Clos des Nolles Semper Excelsior that was extremely expresive for a few minutes before shutting down. But, I believe some Disorderlies may be in the motherland as we speak, and no doubt have more up-to-date and direct-from-the-origin information on all these questions.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Marc D:One other question, if I may.
I have seen other wine makers label their Muscadet with Granite de Clisson.
Is this a single vineyard that they share, or is it a reference to vines grown on granite containing soil, or something else?
Click to expand...

My understanding was that it referred to old vines in granite soil and then a long elevage sur lie. I don't know how codified it is that these wines have to undergo the same process, but it seems to be the common theme.

Not sure if it is technically the same thing, but over the Christmas holidays I had the 05 Luneau Papin Clos des Nolles Semper Excelsior that was extremely expresive for a few minutes before shutting down. But, I believe some Disorderlies may be in the motherland as we speak, and no doubt have more up-to-date and direct-from-the-origin information on all these questions.
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That bottling from Luneau-Papin sees extended lees ageing (36 months, I believe) vis a vis something like the L d'Or. The Granit de Clisson also sees extended lees ageing, although I don't think to the amount of 36 months.
 
Marc,
The other guys no more about the Clisson label; I havem't the foggiest.
As for the chow: oven fries, cabbage with mustard butter and grilled chicken breasts. A good to very good pairing, BTW.
Best, Jim
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Marc D:One other question, if I may.
But, I believe some Disorderlies may be in the motherland as we speak, and no doubt have more up-to-date and direct-from-the-origin information on all these questions.
Click to expand...

Just saw some pics from Ian Becker of a big pile of oysters and Loirette. Considering the early hour, said Disorderlies likely sleeping off the effects of their research.
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Must run to the Dive, but in brief small groups of producers in delineated terroir band together to establish quality standards, police each other, and get a name. The granite in Clisson is different from the granite in Ch. Thebaut, for instance, and there are different groups in each. They delimit pruning, yields, length of elevage, and taste each others' wines. The Luneau-Papin long-lees contact wines are also in a similar system. Granite de Clisson has lower yields than the AOC (someone can search, the details are in some old notes), 2 years minimum on the lees, maximum 6 or 8 bunches per vine (again, it's in the archive), and so on. There are a few producers. Ditto Ch. Thebaut.

It's an effort to establish distinctive high quality areas within Muscadet and break out of the rather desperate situation of the generic, undistinguished AOC.

BTW, the granite of Clisson has more quartz and less mica and feldspar than Thebaut, and the soils are consequently poorer. They are both very well drained compared to the more typical schiste and gneiss soils of the AOC, but may suffer more from drought in some vintages.
 
Thanks, Joe, that's valuable and really great that they're banding together like this, wish more would do the same. Have fun!

Jim, the pinot sounds lovely. I looked it up in google and found some different origins (Oregon, Napa, etc.). Where was yours from?
 
John Thomas makes pinot in Oregon and my bottle was from him.
I have some familiarity with him personally and have visited his site and winery. He is one, among many reasons, I decided to try to make wine myself.
Best, Jim
 
originally posted by SFJoe:

...

BTW, the granite of Clisson has more quartz and less mica and feldspar than Thebaut, and the soils are consequently poorer. They are both very well drained compared to the more typical schiste and gneiss soils of the AOC, but may suffer more from drought in some vintages.
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Not to sidetrack, but caroming back over from discussion on another of Jim's threads, if grape vines do not actually import flavor constituents from the soil in which they are planted (e.g., minerals imparting mineral flavors), how do specifics of soil composition like this affect grape flavors?

One way could be through their affect on drainage, water availability, and concentration of fruit-juice flavor elements. Another could be by means of nutrient availability (nitrogen, potassium, phosphorous ...), which affects the rates at which the vine leaves photosynthesize and thus pack sugars into the fruit. Does nutrient availability also affect plant structural parts (skins, stems) that impart flavors by soaking during vinification?

Are there other ways in which soil composition affect flavor? How well is this relationship understood (between soil and flavor)?

By the way, I am not a 'terroir' ideologue: in my hazy conceptual world, the term conveys simply a wine's sense of identity (or lack thereof), deriving from the whole skein of environmental (but not genetic or after-harvest) factors affecting the vine's growth.

Thanks any light you can shine.
 
Ian, you've made me think of another question: How many different sugars and acids are in a wine-making grape? Perhaps the exact mix varies with the availability of nutrients, water, heat, light, infections, etc?
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:

Are there other ways in which soil composition affect flavor? How well is this relationship understood (between soil and flavor)?
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In addition to the factors you cite, there is also the issue of soil ecology. How much does the composition of the soil affect the collection of bugs who dwell therein? and how does that in turn affect the flavors in the grape? In answer to your last question, not well at all, I'm afraid.

Mark Lipton
 
Well that's an interesting point. According to my imprecise understanding of biodynamic agriculture, under its regime, much effort is exerted to nurture and support a robust microbial ecology in the soil. But I think the purpose here is to is, again, nutrient-focused: to enhance self-supporting nutrient retention and cycling (even acquisition of new nutients) in the vine's root zone, which a strong microbial community helps to achieve. Where successful, this state should drastically reduce the (notional) utility of adding fertilizer. A healthy microbial ecology should, I suppose, also support a healthy bug ecology, in which the presence of bugs that damage plants is tolerated but held to modest levels (rather as pathogens are routinely tolerated and managed by the healthy human body).

Perhaps mineral-rich soils provide the substrate for microbial activity and cation exchange to mobilize a reliable annual flow of new nutrient molecules into the root zone? If so, though, this aspect of soil quality should affect generic plant health, enhancing, perhaps, but not fundamentally amending a wine's flavors.

This is pretty much conjecture, though; maybe a bored member who knows what they are talking about will chime in.
 
...the collection of bugs who dwell therein? and how does that in turn affect the flavors in the grape? In answer to your last question, not well at all, I'm afraid.
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C'mon, show some love for the ladybug!
 
I am traveling and can't run on. But in brief, plants respond to their environment in all sorts of ways. Put people from Northern Europe out in the sun, and they turn red, then brown. DNA damage from UV light turns a whole series of genes on, and others off.

Plant cabernet franc vines in chalky high pH soil and they turn different genes on and off, generating a particular texture in their tannin that I tasted quite a bit yesterday. Buy a Baudry Clos Guillot to see exactly what I mean.

We've genetically engineered these vines for many years to have more than their typical complement of genes for smelly and tasty things--terpenes, small heterocycles and so on. These are regulated in response to their environment in complicated ways.

More another time.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
I am traveling and can't run on. But in brief, plants respond to their environment in all sorts of ways. Put people from Northern Europe out in the sun, and they turn red, then brown. DNA damage from UV light turns a whole series of genes on, and others off.

Plant cabernet franc vines in chalky high pH soil and they turn different genes on and off, generating a particular texture in their tannin that I tasted quite a bit yesterday. Buy a Baudry Clos Guillot to see exactly what I mean.
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Or if it's too chalky, the vines die and you plant chenin (from whence Croix Boise blanc).

I wonder what merlot would taste like from Clos Guillot. Like Trotanoy, but better?
 
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