Interesting comment, but not one I'd agree with. When you're talking top St-Jo sites, I'd say it's a lot more than just the tannin quality. Your very top St-Jo sites have soils like Hermitage with the same exposition. I don't think anyone would say the difference between Hermitage and Crozes is just tannin quality.originally posted by Marc D:
I remember a comment from JLL, saying tannin was the difference between St Joseph and Crozes Hermitage, it provided the poise and frame for the wine.
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Eric, in the first paragraph you imply that Gonon is old school and in the third paragraph you imply that he's not.
originally posted by Brzme:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Eric, in the first paragraph you imply that Gonon is old school and in the third paragraph you imply that he's not.
Sorry for this Oswaldo. I meant the opposite.
For me Gonon is the exact opposite of Souhaut and al, in term of style.
Old school northern rhone also means low extraction for me. So no tannic modern monsters la Robert, Bonnefond or Montez.
And yes I believe that whole cluster leads to a long and deep weird phase for syrah in some vintages.
No science involved. Hundred of bottles drunk. I don't think wine has much to do with science. I am Pascalian.
Eric
Yes, just think of the bottles as bunnies.originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
PS: "in the name of science" is just a common American expression...
originally posted by SFJoe:
Yes, just think of the bottles as bunnies.originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
PS: "in the name of science" is just a common American expression...
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
This is why we see Joe "Hef" Dougherty walking around with jeroboams of Ppire under his arms.
On a more serious note, one could posit that it is the most veiled of coincidences if in French the word "canon" is slang both for a drink/glass of wine and a "hottie."
Really? I've never noticed it. In fact, Clape's wines seem amazingly open all the time.originally posted by Brzme:
And yes I believe that whole cluster leads to a long and deep weird phase for syrah in some vintages.
Eric
????originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Really? I've never noticed it. In fact, Clape's wines seem amazingly open all the time.originally posted by Brzme:
And yes I believe that whole cluster leads to a long and deep weird phase for syrah in some vintages.
Eric
Must be karma. :)originally posted by SFJoe:
????originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Really? I've never noticed it. In fact, Clape's wines seem amazingly open all the time.originally posted by Brzme:
And yes I believe that whole cluster leads to a long and deep weird phase for syrah in some vintages.
Eric
Really?
Interesting how experiences vary.
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Really? I've never noticed it. In fact, Clape's wines seem amazingly open all the time.originally posted by Brzme:
And yes I believe that whole cluster leads to a long and deep weird phase for syrah in some vintages.
Eric
Mark -- When I tasted the 1983 Clape in 1985, I thought it was, along with Chave and one of the cuves of Barge Cte-Rtie, one of the greatest wines of the vintage, just fantastic to taste at that point. I was tasting the Kermit Lynch cuve, which in 1983 was all from a plot of Reynard planted in the 1890s, so it may not have been the same wine you were tasting? But it was overflowing with fantastic fruit. It was a very tannic vintage, but I guess I have a high tolerance for tannin (no problem drinking coffee or tea straight).originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Really? I've never noticed it. In fact, Clape's wines seem amazingly open all the time.originally posted by Brzme:
And yes I believe that whole cluster leads to a long and deep weird phase for syrah in some vintages.
Eric
Claude,
Could you perhaps elaborate on what you mean by "open" in this context? My first ever encounter with a Clape Cornas was with his '83 in '85 or '86 and it nearly put me off Syrah altogether: fiercely tannic, no fruit and intensely animale in a wet grizzly sort of way. My next encounter with Cornas was an '86 Juge in '90 or '91 and... pretty much the same story. That's why I've been drinking '86 and '87 Verset and Clape in recent years.
Mark Lipton
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Michel Bettane once observed that wines of the Rhne rarely suffer the closing-up phases that one so frequently encounters in Burgundies and Bordeaux, and I agree with him completely on that.
Really? Sounds cool, please tell us more!originally posted by Brzme:
this kind of bitterness all the modernist are fighting by using new oak or more recently added roasted grape tannin preparations.
Eric -- I understand what is meant by calling Clape a modernist because the texture of his wine is/was different and less rustic than that of others, but I think that the wines are made in a very traditional manner -- when one visits the celar, calling it modern is, well, more than laughable, and in fact to me Clusel would be substantially more modern than Clape (although that is comparative, Clusel is not anywhere near the center of modernism at Cte-Rtie). Indeed, the fact that Clape is one of the few to still use stems is strong refutation to the "modern" label. Modern Cornas for me meant Colombo and his clients.originally posted by Brzme:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Michel Bettane once observed that wines of the Rhne rarely suffer the closing-up phases that one so frequently encounters in Burgundies and Bordeaux, and I agree with him completely on that.
Claude
I have always thought of Clape as one of the first modernists from the northern Rhone.
I bought a lot of his wines from the 80s and 90s, and admit that I sold most of them. Not really my style, especially compared Verset and Juge. I remember clearly Jean Clusel in the early 80s saying that Clape was making Cornas as a Bordeaux...I wouldn't go that far.
I rarely share Bettane views, especially when it comes to Northern Rhone or Burgundy.
I don't share that one either.
This is far from my personal experience, especially for Gentaz, Chol, Juge or Verset even Chave I would say. I don't know a lot of people who really enjoyed 1991s 5 years after bottling.
88 Grandes Places from CLusel is now a lovely bottle of wine. But I wasted at least 6 bottles in the past 15 years hoping the potential showed in the barrel was beginning to point out. My first good one was 2-3 years ago only, and I wouldn't touch any magmum.
I have to admit that I don't enjoy black fruit or bacon in a Northern Rhone wine, and have a hard time when they begin to loose that fruit and taste oaky with this kind of bitterness all the modernist are fighting by using new oak or more recently added roasted grape tannin preparations.
I don't see even one 2005 I could enjoy today. We tasted something like 65 of them in Chavanay during the March last December, and they were really all painful and gross for my taste.
Southern rhone wines very rarely close up , I agree. Even whole cluster.
My .02 centimes
Eric
:
As for 2005s, it may be that the reason they're not enjoyable now is because many will never be enjoyable -- so many of the wines are unbalanced and overripe, and that is the way they were in barrel.
originally posted by SFJoe:
Really? Sounds cool, please tell us more!originally posted by Brzme:
this kind of bitterness all the modernist are fighting by using new oak or more recently added roasted grape tannin preparations.
Where do I get me some of them roasted grape tannins?