Rahsaan in Le Monde

Re:

"La France volue-t-elle ?

Le discours a beaucoup chang. Plus personne ne nie que la France est diverse. Il reste faire vivre cette ralit. Cela me semble relativement plus facile dans un vieux pays d'immigration comme la France, qu'en Italie ou en Espagne, o la question est toute rcente."

I'm not so sure about this comparison, Rahsaan. I have the impression that Spain is reacting to its own new-found ethnic diversity much more naturally and realistically than Italy, and perhaps even than France...
 
I would also like to hear more from VS as I am not an expert on Spain.

But two points about my quote.

1) I agree that Spain is not the main poster child for dysfunctional immigrant integration. I usually cite Italy and the Czech Republic as leaders in that field but the journalist wanted to include Spain, most likely to appeal to the Western-centric minds of the Le Monde readers.

2) Even if Spain may have the foundations for a more stable and enlightened long-term immigrant integration experience, my point was that in many respects France is 'ahead' because of its long history on these issues. So despite all the self-flagellation and unfavorable comparisons to Britain and the Netherlands, second and third generation immigrants in France with non-European origins have done much better in politics and are much further integrated into the middle and upper classes than in the newer countries of immigration. That's all. Of course these developments will come with time in Spain as well.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
Speaking of the debate on race-related stats in France: have there been controlled two-celled experiments in France on issues like lending or employment? For example, testing bankers' reception of 100 similar loan applications, with one group of banks receiving some indication of racial identity of the applicants and another matched group of banks receiving no indication.

There have been LOTS of experiments with CVs of similar qualifications but different names.

There have also been a bunch with access to housing, nightclubs, and other areas of discrimination.

I don't need to tell you what they discovered (ok: discrimination is endemic).

The tactic has its own new word dervied from English: le testing.
In France I was a docteur en sciences de la Rue et un assistant professeur en Banlieue for 4 years.(kids from 6 to 10y old).Even those little boogers,as young as they are,are totally aware of this problem!!!!Very bright lil'kids.
Le probleme d integration en France est a mes yeux presque insurmontable. LA FRANCE EST BELLE ET BIEN DANS UN SACRE PETRIN.
La France a une attitude honteuse en ce qui concerne ce sujet.
Ni la gauche ni la droite ont ete capable de traiter ce probleme et le sentiment d'inegalite au sein des communautes minoritaires grandit chaque jour.
Il faut donc bruler l'Elysee,point barre.
Merci Monsieur Rashaan.
Luc.
 
originally posted by lucertoran: Le probleme d integration en France est a mes yeux presque insurmontable..

Feeling a little bombastic here?

I know there are serious problems in France on these issues (as there are in all countries on all sorts of issues) but nothing is insurmountable. And I'm not just talking long-run-we're-all-dead time horizons. Things have moved really fast in the past years to accept diversity in France and given the demographics I think it's inevitable that everyone gets used to it.

There will be a few unfortunate hiccups along the way bien sur.. And things may not move as quickly in every domain as everyone would like. And lots of dedicated commitment from brave activists is required, etc, etc.
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Head-scarves, yes or no?

Personally, my view is a bit more liberal than even most Muslims in France. I was against the 2004 law and am not a big fan of Sarkozy's recent debates around national identity. But, studies show that most Muslims in France are not opposed to these restrictions on clothing. In fact, most 'Muslims' in France are not very religious. So who am I to tell them how to think.

Of course even if most Muslims have bought the French notions of secularism and universalism, there is a problem because the secular Christian majority still sees those Muslims as incompatible with France. And I don't mean to downplay these 'hiccups' because I know how real and troubling they are. But I think they can be resolved/significantly improved in decades not centuries.

But I don't want to get too much into prognostication, because guesswork is only guesswork.
 
It is always interesting to me how the terms of a debate are established most often by those who are simply the noisiest.

And I agree that amity is a two-way street.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by lucertoran: Le probleme d integration en France est a mes yeux presque insurmontable..

Feeling a little bombastic here?

I know there are serious problems in France on these issues (as there are in all countries on all sorts of issues) but nothing is insurmountable. And I'm not just talking long-run-we're-all-dead time horizons. Things have moved really fast in the past years to accept diversity in France and given the demographics I think it's inevitable that everyone gets used to it.

There will be a few unfortunate hiccups along the way bien sur.. And things may not move as quickly in every domain as everyone would like. And lots of dedicated commitment from brave activists is required, etc, etc.
Grew up there,lived there ,smoke streets and beers,bourbons,scotchs and No wine ....
Trust me...go work on the the field you'll see some eight years old talking like Chomsky,Zinn....Really problematic.Don't think it is the same way in Brezeme (Hello,Eric,Tu viens en Mars j espere!!!)
 
originally posted by lucertoran:
Trust me...go work on the the field you'll see some eight years old talking like Chomsky,Zinn....Really problematic.

And you think France is somehow unique in this regard?
 
Am late to the party. Many, many flicitations! That is fantastic.

Personally, my view is a bit more liberal than even most Muslims in France.

How would you situate yourself with respect to the Sikh population ;) ?
 
Some sort of explanation about my views on Spain/Italy/France vs immigration...

Spain's case is a very strange one, of course. From 2000 to 2007 Spain was the leading immigration country in the world - its unsustainable construction-led boom acted as a powerful magnet, as shown by its dramatic population increase. It had been mired below 40 million and now is almost 47 million. So we have a sizeable immigrant population. Top three incoming countries: Ecuador, Morocco, Romania, plus of course the large number of aging expats from wealthy European Union countries. The bottom fell out of the economy in 2008 and unemployment has skyrocketed, but there have just been a few thousands returning home, and most importantly there have been no major racial rows. The social atmosphere remains peaceful and crime is a relatively minor problem.

Possibly the recent beginning of the phenomenon has helped to avoid some of the causes of unrest elsewhere - particularly, there are no ghastly suburban ghettoes here as in the French 'banlieues'. There are plenty of poor neighborhoods, but they are basically integrated, with poor Spaniards and poor foreigners facing this difficult world shoulder to shoulder with not much reciprocal animosity. There is no significant far-right political party stoking xenophobia. And no politician would dream of using the incendiary language Silvio Berlusconi indulges in in Italy.

There are reasons in Spain's past, ancient and more recent, which partly explain why, besides 200 morons who yell epithets at black soccer players in a few stadiums (a fact much ballyhooed by the British press but which the black athletes I know here completely disregard), tolerance is relatively high.

Spain's colonial past, often described in dire terms by Anglo-Saxon commentators and historians, is no doubt full of violence, injustice, greed, pillaging and religious fanaticism. But it had some redeeming factors. Racial considerations were a very minor component of Iberian colonial philosophies (I include Portugal here: same background); certainly much lesser than religious zeal. On the one part, Iberia is the most ethnically mixed part of western Europe (Iberians, Phoenicians, Celts, Romans, Visigoths, Jews, Arabs, Berbers...), and in 1492 was just coming out of an eight-century occupation by Muslim Arabs. For a long time there were blond Muslims and dark-skinned Christians in Spain, and in the end what counted was if you ate pork and drank wine or not, not your complexion.

In their vast colonies in Asia, Africa and the Americas, Spain and Portugal fostered basically mixed-race populations: a new, partly European, partly local breed developed from Lima to Goa. This never happened in the British Empire, which strenuously kept races apart.

As a consequence, Columbus Day is known as Da de la Raza in Hispanic countries. What race? Any color. The Spanish-speaking race, that's all.

Only the old and deep opposition to Islam in Spain could ignite a modern-day ethnic clash here, considering that there are a couple of million of North Africans living in Spain now. But a generalized rejection of the old-time Catholic fanaticism has been one of the obvious components of the socio-political backlash after the end of Francoism, and that plays a role in reducing that threat. It's not defused because prejudice remains on both sides - even more so amid the few radical Islamists than among the tiny group of Christian fundamentalists. But we're talking small minorities here.

Two final factors:

One: the many Latin American immigrants speak the language from day one; the Romanians easily learn Spanish in six months; the Moroccans and Algerians all speak French, some Spanish, and anyhow have been crossing this country toward northern Europe for years, so they too become sufficiently proficient in a short time. Therefore, Spain has the fastest rate of cultural assimilation anywhere in Europe.

Two: a few million Spaniards were immigrants themselves in other countries just a couple of decades ago. In a generation, this country has gone from exporting millions of poor people to importing millions of poor people. (We might see the pendulum swing once again in the opposite direction in our lifetime, the way Spain's government is attacking the world crisis...) They know what it was like to be away from everything, almost defenseless and desperate. It's this generation of Spaniards which I think is playing a large role in showing that the plight of the foreigner is understood here.
 
Most interesting, Victor. Idiotically, I read through the entire analysis under the misapprehension that it was Rahsaan who had written it. Regardless, I did have one counterexample to cite: the worst racism I have encountered in North America was in certain parts of Mexico, where the epithet "los Indios" carries with it a degree of contempt, disgust and dehumanization that I haven't witnessed elsewhere. Taking into account also the ongoing institutionalized discrimination against mulattoes and mestizos in many parts of Latin America and one gains the impression that this is a legacy of Iberian colonialism, which is hard to imagine isn't also a reflection of the broader attitudes toward race in 16th-18th C Iberia. None of this bears at all on present-day Spain, but it does seem to stand in contrast to the antecedents that you describe.

Mark Lipton
 
While its true that in Latin America, the Spanish took control as much by intermarrying as by killing (hence both a mixed race and an indigenous population that barely exists in North America), it is also true that, like Mark in Mexico, I have experienced more virulent and open racism and race consciousness in Ecuador than anything that I have seen in North America or France. I don't know what this says about France but it certainly says something about the race consciousness of the Spanish Colonial enterprise. If Britain has nothing to brag about, and the US still less, nevertheless I don't think the results in Latin America of the Spanish experience would declare that an argument for their earlier imperialism.
 
You are free and most welcome to opine, of course. The levels of racial integration and harmony in the United States and U.S. history as a whole teach those poor Hispanics a great lesson about how it's done properly. Not to mention your obvious in-depth knowledge about present-day Spain.
 
Just wait till we Chinks rule the world! First Petrus with Coke, then CRB with Mountain Dew.

Heck, we don't even like our slit-eyed cousins.
 
Well, Madrid's most interesting and revered restaurant right now, Sudestada, is Argentinian-Vietnamese.

Take that in the chink!
 
originally posted by VS:
You are free and most welcome to opine, of course. The levels of racial integration and harmony in the United States and U.S. history as a whole teach those poor Hispanics a great lesson about how it's done properly. Not to mention your obvious in-depth knowledge about present-day Spain.

Obviously you have not read the post carefully since it has nothing positive to say about US racism nor does it opine about present-day Spain. It remarks, with one other post, about observed race consciousness in Latin America. As it happens, although I am no expert, I have written some on the Spanish Conquest.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

Obviously you have not read the post carefully since it has nothing positive to say about US racism nor does it opine about present-day Spain.
I was reacting to both your post and to Mark Lipton's. Sorry that this wasn't clear.

As it happens, although I'm a mere lowdown hack, I've also written a little, would you believe, about the Spanish colonization.

And the Spanish inquisition, of course!
 
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