Selosse gets controversial on acidity
- Thread starter VS
- Start date
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
I believe Jay has shown me good ones. As Yule suggested, I am not much for oxidized flavors. I also do not care for vin jaune, and LdH whites are at the very edge of what I find tasty. PX, of course, can be so sweet that the oxidation is less vivid to me. Finally, strangely, I like madeira, though I tend towards the sweeter ones.
For Chinese New Year eve, I typically pair a bottle-aged palo cortado with century egg porridge.
This morning we had traditional noodles (mee sua, in chicken and scallop broth) with Pierre Peters NV. Very successful pairing.
I think a sparkling palomino has been done before, but not one with flor influence. Can't see that working out, given the respective vinification methods, but might be fun.
Victor, what's a typical dry extract number for fino/manzanilla? The closest I got to replicating it was with a dry riesling augmented with msg and a pinch of brewer's yeast.
This morning we had traditional noodles (mee sua, in chicken and scallop broth) with Pierre Peters NV. Very successful pairing.
I think a sparkling palomino has been done before, but not one with flor influence. Can't see that working out, given the respective vinification methods, but might be fun.
Victor, what's a typical dry extract number for fino/manzanilla? The closest I got to replicating it was with a dry riesling augmented with msg and a pinch of brewer's yeast.
I've tried that very Sherry/chowdah combination and found it vile, but I'm no arbiter, and people should judge for themselves. Maybe our chowder is lacking (maybe not enough canned tomato juice). That said, I used to despise Sherry, I now love it, and I can only credit being in Spain (...well, Euskadi and Catalua, which might not be Spain depending on who you ask) for changing my mind. But I still hate mediocre or bad Sherry.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Fermented soybeans. Ugly, smelly, gelatinous.
An anglo friend tells a story of one of his travels in Japan. He likes to try whatever the local folks eat so, in some restaurant, he orders natto. Of course, being the only non-Japanese in the entire place, everyone is watching him. He struggles with the food for a while. Then, an older man comes up to him and, in broken English, says, "We do not like it, either, but we eat it because it is traditional."
Correction: "beans" not "curd". Thank you, Joel.
Joel Stewart
Joel Stewart
Natto is actually fermented soybeans (not curd)...smelly, yes, in a cheesy way, gooey, yes, not gelatinous. Good stuff (try it in an omelette or in deep-fried gyoza), but an acquired taste (and texture) for those not familiar with it.
Never attempt to enjoy it with mayonnaise, unless you want to mimic a dog eating peanut butter.
Never attempt to enjoy it with mayonnaise, unless you want to mimic a dog eating peanut butter.
Hi Joe:
Yes, that would be the thought. Specifically glutamine-based proteins.
Some agricultural products--mushrooms, tomatoes, konbu seaweed, etc--are naturally high in them. Other products--cheese, soy sauce, miso, wine(?)-- need particular fermentations to unlock them.
Cheers,
Well, that's what we have generally believed in Spain too. But this, to me, rather surprising statement by Selosse echoes what Claude Bourguignon (one of Selosse's mentors, BTW) has told me: that what he calls somewhat salty, savory, very appetizing (thus, very much resembling umami) character in wine is a direct imprint of limestone soils.
Bourguignon says that a limestone wine makes you want to take another sip and another, while a slate or granite wine may not make so much of this sort of effect. He calls that character "a part of the limestone minerality", he points out that it's a defining feature of Burgundy wines, and just like Selosse (and like Michel Bettane) he has remarked that many Spanish wines from limestone terroirs, including reds and whites, share that trait. (Spain has the largest surface of limestone-dominated terroirs in the world.)
There are few soils with as much limestone as the practically white 'albarizas' of Jerez and of Montilla-Moriles (another good example being Champagne). Lately, the top current specialist in sherry, Jess Barqun, who writes for elmundovino and for The World of Fine Wine (and is half of the Equipo Navazos), has been writing that more attention needed to be paid to the soils, and not just to autolysis, in defining the character of sherry.
Joel Stewart
Joel Stewart
Any notions about the origins of umami in some sakes, Bruce? Same thing?
Could be.
I'm in no way eager to disagree with Selosse, Bettane, and Bourguignon in one fell swoop (hard to figure out how I could be on the right side of THAT one).
But in 20 years of tasting daily with Japanese sommeliers, wine makers, restaurateurs, etc it would seem that umami is far more closely associated with microbial activity (sous voile, tirage, and the like) than soil type. I don't, for instance, hear Japanese industry folks remarking as often about umami in Burgundies or Loire wines.
Saying that umami is more based on flor yeast activity isn't intended in any way to diminish the importance of soil.
Soil ALWAYS matters, probably more than anything else.
I've enjoyed Barquin's writing quite a bit. I haven't had the pleasure, though, of trying his wines.... sadly, I don't think they're available (widely, if at all) here in Japan.
Cheers,
Hi Joel.
In sakes you've got at least two very distinct bugs at work: Aspergillus mold and fermentation yeasts. The combination of the two seems to kick out a lot of amino acids.
I've been told that sake is a very good vehicle to carry umami because it lacks other possibly masking sensory compounds. For instance, the principle organic acids in sake are amino acids (as opposed to "fruit" acids like tartartic in grapes/wines or citric in citrus fruits). Since umami is basically a function of certain amino acids, sake is well constructed to demonstrate such characters.
Or so they say.
I'm starting to sound a bit mechanistic here, and that's not where I'd choose to be.
How's life down there?
Cold enough to be drinking your fair share of atsukan?
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
originally posted by VS:
Well, that's what we have generally believed in Spain too. But this, to me, rather surprising statement by Selosse echoes what Claude Bourguignon (one of Selosse's mentors, BTW) has told me: that what he calls somewhat salty, savory, very appetizing (thus, very much resembling umami) character in wine is a direct imprint of limestone soils.
Bourguignon says that a limestone wine makes you want to take another sip and another, while a slate or granite wine may not make so much of this sort of effect. He calls that character "a part of the limestone minerality", he points out that it's a defining feature of Burgundy wines, and just like Selosse (and like Michel Bettane) he has remarked that many Spanish wines from limestone terroirs, including reds and whites, share that trait. (Spain has the largest surface of limestone-dominated terroirs in the world.)
There are few soils with as much limestone as the practically white 'albarizas' of Jerez and of Montilla-Moriles (another good example being Champagne). Lately, the top current specialist in sherry, Jess Barqun, who writes for elmundovino and for The World of Fine Wine (and is half of the Equipo Navazos), has been writing that more attention needed to be paid to the soils, and not just to autolysis, in defining the character of sherry.
I guess this is another piece in the puzzle of soil-vine interaction that is material counterpart of the idea of terroir. It hearkens back to Joe's note in another thread (if I understood him) that chemical components in soils, taken up into the plant with water, may catalyze genetic production of certain proteins, which lead to flavor differences.
Thank you, this is a fascinating subject.
I'm not sure the compounds need to be taken up to influence the gene expression in the plant, from a purely mechanistic standpoint.
Separately, I think limestone gives a particular mouthfeel, but I don't think it's the same as umami. Clos Roche Blanche wines, as one example, have a family resemblance from sauvignon blanc through to cot that I attribute to the common limestone soil. They don't have a particularly unusual autolysis regime, though.
Separately, I think limestone gives a particular mouthfeel, but I don't think it's the same as umami. Clos Roche Blanche wines, as one example, have a family resemblance from sauvignon blanc through to cot that I attribute to the common limestone soil. They don't have a particularly unusual autolysis regime, though.
Well, umami is essentially monosodium glutamate, isn't it? Bourguignon seems to believe that the basic salts in a limestone soil convey a similar character. As you know, he believes that microbes do bring taste characters from the soil directly to the vine and the grape. (Me, I'm scientifically deprived.)
scottreiner
scott reiner
wrong chowder! and you live in boston!
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
Then how do they exercise influence?
As far as limestone is concerned, the result on gamay is the exact opposite of the one described by all these so respected wine personalities : heaviness, lack of complexity, and of terroir expression.
Generalities...
BTW, what about riesling and limestone? Rosacker is partially limestone, any other great limestone terroir for riesling?
Generalities...
BTW, what about riesling and limestone? Rosacker is partially limestone, any other great limestone terroir for riesling?