Selosse gets controversial on acidity

originally posted by Brzme:
As far as limestone is concerned, the result on gamay is the exact opposite of the one described by all these so respected wine personalities : heaviness, lack of complexity, and of terroir expression.

Generalities...
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More evidence that it matters what you plant where.

And maybe also that vines have adapted to a particular environment (?)
 
originally posted by Bruce G.:
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
Any notions about the origins of umami in some sakes, Bruce? Same thing?
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Hi Joel.
In sakes you've got at least two very distinct bugs at work: Aspergillus mold and fermentation yeasts. The combination of the two seems to kick out a lot of amino acids.
I've been told that sake is a very good vehicle to carry umami because it lacks other possibly masking sensory compounds. For instance, the principle organic acids in sake are amino acids (as opposed to "fruit" acids like tartartic in grapes/wines or citric in citrus fruits). Since umami is basically a function of certain amino acids, sake is well constructed to demonstrate such characters.

Or so they say.
I'm starting to sound a bit mechanistic here, and that's not where I'd choose to be.

How's life down there?
Cold enough to be drinking your fair share of atsukan?
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That makes sense to me, Bruce...thanks. It may just be me, but seems like I more often find umami in the straight junmai's or the tokubetsu junmai types (and sometimes the junmai ginjo's) as opposed to the dai-ginjos (junmai or not) and the arutenshu's. The dai-ginjos often seem to have umami refined out of the profile altogether. (Was actually sipping on a room temp, umami-laden Taruhei tokubetsu junmai when I saw your post response to SFJoe which made me think to ask...)
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
It may just be me, but seems like I more often find umami in the straight junmai's or the tokubetsu junmai types (and sometimes the junmai ginjo's) as opposed to the dai-ginjos (junmai or not) and the arutenshu's. The dai-ginjos often seem to have umami refined out of the profile altogether.
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Joel:

Makes perfect sense.
Daiginjos are about the spoofiest things going. They've had the personality completely milled out of em (much of what gets milled away is proteinaceous in nature, which would obviously go a long way towards contributing to amino acid-based umami). Then they're tricked up with the latest incarnation of Sake Brewers' Guild yeast fermented at cold temps. Pure artifice.
If you ever get close to a toji, ask them what they think of the ginjo/daiginjo class of sakes.... then stand back and watch the sparks fly!
 
originally posted by Hank Beckmeyer:
originally posted by Brzme:
As far as limestone is concerned, the result on gamay is the exact opposite of the one described by all these so respected wine personalities : heaviness, lack of complexity, and of terroir expression.

Generalities...
Click to expand...

More evidence that it matters what you plant where.
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Of course. For instance, that is what happens to tempranillo on slate. But the list of limestone-friendly grape varieties is very long, and the list of limestone-fearing ones very short.
 
Daiginjo is just ginjo done that much further. Both share common characteristics of highly polished rice, specialty yeast strains, very cold fermentations, etc.
 
originally posted by VS:
Well, umami is essentially monosodium glutamate, isn't it? Bourguignon seems to believe that the basic salts in a limestone soil convey a similar character. As you know, he believes that microbes do bring taste characters from the soil directly to the vine and the grape. (Me, I'm scientifically deprived.)
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Umami is mostly glutamate (and in solution it forgets whether sodium or some other cation brought it to the dance), but the last time I checked in there are effects from some other amino acids and also from mononucleotides.

Victor, I'm surprised that you aren't more sympathetic to the cause of mycorrhizal fungi.

They are one of a zillion ways that the soil environment could influence the vines.

Consider the sorts of things that we do in response to relatively minor environmental changes. More sunlight--more melanin in palefaces. More barefoot walking--more callouses in anyone. More wine--higher liver enzymes. Embarrassing revelations about our past--blushing.

Grapes aren't so different. Different ion concentration, pH, water availability, all these things support different symbiotic organisms, turn on different genes, activate different pathways, and so on.
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
originally posted by VS:
I am always surprised that some savvy wine lovers don't like "sherry" in general - which I guess encompasses everything from fino to pedro ximnez. Maybe you've never come across a really good one?
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I believe Jay has shown me good ones. As Yule suggested, I am not much for oxidized flavors. I also do not care for vin jaune, and LdH whites are at the very edge of what I find tasty. PX, of course, can be so sweet that the oxidation is less vivid to me. Finally, strangely, I like madeira, though I tend towards the sweeter ones.
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I am surprised the 20yr Marsala went over ok.

Maybe you were just humoring me.
 
Marsala, too, is at the very edge of what I will drink. (I do like a bit of rancio in my armagnac but that reads "nutty", not "spoiled", to me.)
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
originally posted by SFJoe:


Victor, I'm surprised that you aren't more sympathetic to the cause of mycorrhizal fungi.

...
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Does this mean grape vines form relationships with mycorrhizae, or just that wine goes well with truffles?
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Vines form mycorrhizal relationships with fungi. It's a widespread but understudied phenomenon that is very important. And not just for oaks and their truffles.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
Vines form mycorrhizal relationships with fungi. It's a widespread but understudied phenomenon that is very important.
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Joe,what Ian said, and...is this moreso (or even exclusive) to vines growing in terroir that isn't fucked up by excessive use of pesticides, fertilizers and other things that non-organic or non-bioD farmers normally do to their vineyard soils? I seem to recall reading somewhere on Bertrand's site that overly chemically managed plots are microbial wastelands in this respect (if microbe is the right term).

Also...are the fungi different in each region, or is there a core group of fungal specie(s) one could find in, say, the vineyards of Touraine, as well as Friuli, as well as the Willamette valley which have this symbiotic relationship with vine roots?
 
originally posted by Thor:
wrong chowder! and you live in boston!
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I know, Scott. That was the joke. Tomatoes belong in chowdah like chardonnay belongs in the Mosel.
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Does Manhattan clam chowder actually come from Manhattan? I lived there for 5 years, and whenever I got chowder, it was always New England.

Wasn't Manhattan clam chowder just dreamt up by Campbells so they could sling some more of their tomato soup?
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
originally posted by SFJoe:
Vines form mycorrhizal relationships with fungi. It's a widespread but understudied phenomenon that is very important.
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Joe,what Ian said, and...is this moreso (or even exclusive) to vines growing in terroir that isn't fucked up by excessive use of pesticides, fertilizers and other things that non-organic or non-bioD farmers normally do to their vineyard soils? I seem to recall reading somewhere on Bertrand's site that overly chemically managed plots are microbial wastelands in this respect (if microbe is the right term).

Also...are the fungi different in each region, or is there a core group of fungal specie(s) one could find in, say, the vineyards of Touraine, as well as Friuli, as well as the Willamette valley which have this symbiotic relationship with vine roots?
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It's widely belived and logical that heavy use of fungicides would discourage mycorrhizal fungi with the rest, since there has been little effort to render those things narrow-spectrum. Not that it's impossible, but no one has tried.

Until recently, it was very hard to study the different mycorrhizal symbionts, because to a racist outsider, they all look pretty much the same. To name a fungus with confidence, you had to make it fruit, which wasn't always possible and didn't ensure that you hadn't gotten the other one that was 2 mm over by mistake. With PCR and other modern molecular methods it should be possible to sort this out, but I haven't seen any data. Of course, I don't subscribe to any journals that would publish this sort of thing, so it's no big surprise if I've missed important work.

How these relationships are affected by, say, calcium concentration (to pick one of many possibilities related to limestone soils) is also unknown, since mycorrhizal relationships are difficult to produce and study in the lab. Or at least unknown to me. But there are many possibilities that could affect the way the grapes taste.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:

Victor, I'm surprised that you aren't more sympathetic to the cause of mycorrhizal fungi.

They are one of a zillion ways that the soil environment could influence the vines.
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Oh, I am, I am sympathetic, no doubt! I'm a mushroom person through and through! But I wasn't talking about the many ways the soil influences the vine, I was talking very specifically of the flavor and aroma components from the different mineral contents of each soil which, according to the Bourguignon thesis, are directly carried up into the vine and the grape by microbial action.
 
originally posted by Yixin:
For Chinese New Year eve, I typically pair a bottle-aged palo cortado with century egg porridge.

This morning we had traditional noodles (mee sua, in chicken and scallop broth) with Pierre Peters NV. Very successful pairing.

I think a sparkling palomino has been done before, but not one with flor influence. Can't see that working out, given the respective vinification methods, but might be fun.

Victor, what's a typical dry extract number for fino/manzanilla? The closest I got to replicating it was with a dry riesling augmented with msg and a pinch of brewer's yeast.
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Oh Godd, palo cortado...!!! Love it.
 
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