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Selosse gets controversial on acidity
- Thread starter VS
- Start date
But in most cases such an extreme view is so extremely unlikely as to be irrelevant. Victor, you should give us a citation if you're attributing such silly views to someone.originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by VS:
Oh, I am, I am sympathetic, no doubt! I'm a mushroom person through and through! But I wasn't talking about the many ways the soil influences the vine, I was talking very specifically of the flavor and aroma components from the different mineral contents of each soil which, according to the Bourguignon thesis, are directly carried up into the vine and the grape by microbial action.originally posted by SFJoe:
Victor, I'm surprised that you aren't more sympathetic to the cause of mycorrhizal fungi.
They are one of a zillion ways that the soil environment could influence the vines.
Are there citations for this? If true, that'd be fascinating. Did you talk about this research the last time the topic came up? I lost track of that thread.
Arjun Mendiratta
Arjun Mendiratta
originally posted by SFJoe:
But in most cases such an extreme view is so extremely unlikely as to be irrelevant.
Indeed, this argument is a straw man that only gets in the way of productive discussion. Soil-to-glass transfer is a metaphor, not a theory.
As SFJoe points out, the biochemical mechanisms by which soil may influence the taste of wine are myriad, and, to say the least, incompletely understood.
originally posted by VS:
"Pour retrouver une agriculture saine", the 2008 book by Claude and Lydia Bourguignon, can be partially read on Google Books, I believe. See page 173 onward. (In French only.)
I am a little surprised at the general surprise here about Bourguignon's well-known theses...
I like Bourguignon ideas and thesis a lot. Really. I hope he's right.
I'd wish he was the pure scientist he thinks he is.
Alas most of his writtings are more wishfull thinking than scientifically proved thesis.
It is plenty enough for me, as a grower. But far from being enough to convince agronomical authorities, at least in France.
Miguel Altieri work on very similar subjects, from UC Berkeley, is much more scientific in Popper acceptance.
Fully agreed, as a grower. As I said, I'm scientifically deprived... :-)originally posted by Brzme:
It is plenty enough for me, as a grower.
originally posted by SFJoe:
Vines form mycorrhizal relationships with fungi. It's a widespread but understudied phenomenon that is very important.
...
It's widely belived and logical that heavy use of fungicides would discourage mycorrhizal fungi with the rest, since there has been little effort to render those things narrow-spectrum. Not that it's impossible, but no one has tried.
Until recently, it was very hard to study the different mycorrhizal symbionts, because to a racist outsider, they all look pretty much the same.
How these relationships are affected by, say, calcium concentration (to pick one of many possibilities related to limestone soils) is also unknown, since mycorrhizal relationships are difficult to produce and study in the lab. Or at least unknown to me. But there are many possibilities that could affect the way the grapes taste.
Joe
Thanks for these inputs.
When do you start your micorrhizal consultant business for growers?
We are buying and spreading a lot of things blind, like this Endorize, thinking it's going to be good for the soil, the terroir expression...
I hope for the best. Not sure though...
Oh, no, fungal spoof!originally posted by Brzme:
Joe
Thanks for these inputs.
When do you start your micorrhizal consultant business for growers?
We are buying and spreading a lot of things blind, like this Endorize, thinking it's going to be good for the soil, the terroir expression...
I hope for the best. Not sure though...
Seriously, I don't know that much about which fungi you might want and which you don't. Also, i have the impression that these relationships are established early in the life of a plant and I have an unsupported notion that it might be hard to change partners. If you look at microscopic photographs of the mycorrhizal relationship, the amount of interpenetration is quite amazing.
originally posted by SFJoe:
Seriously, I don't know that much about which fungi you might want and which you don't. Also, i have the impression that these relationships are established early in the life of a plant and I have an unsupported notion that it might be hard to change partners. If you look at microscopic photographs of the mycorrhizal relationship, the amount of interpenetration is quite amazing.
I would certainly expect that the fungi come along with the roots of the plant, if for no other reason than fungi are so damn hard to get rid of in the first place -- just ask those wineries with a Brett infection. In fact, I am suspicious of the idea that pesticides and fertilizer can deprive a soil entirely of its fungal residents. More likely to me is that the use of pesticides can alter the fungal population census and thus mess with terroir, but as this idea was produced in the absence of any hard data, you should take it for what it's worth.
Mark Lipton
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
originally posted by SFJoe:
Seriously, I don't know that much about which fungi you might want and which you don't. Also, i have the impression that these relationships are established early in the life of a plant and I have an unsupported notion that it might be hard to change partners. If you look at microscopic photographs of the mycorrhizal relationship, the amount of interpenetration is quite amazing.
There are different genres; some develop what is called a 'hartig' net of filaments around root cells and exchange carbs and nutrients across membranes, pushing in-between the cells in the process; some actually penetrate, alien-like, into plants root cells and exchange directly with the cytoplasm. Many tree species will, in effect, subcontract out fine-root functions to them, in exchange for a small proportion of the trees' photosynthetically produced carbohydrate flow. Trees will form relationships with local mycorrhizae that specialize in collecting nutrients that are relatively scarce, and thus photosynthesis-limiting, in a given soil environment; for example, phosphorus in tropical rain forests. If the limiting nutrient for some reason becomes plentiful, trees will sometimes then break off the relationship, even attacking the mycorrhizae with fungicides.
I don't know much about vine-myccohrizal relationships.
originally posted by VS:
....according to the Bourguignon thesis, are directly carried up into the vine and the grape by microbial action.
If you don't have scientific procedures and equipment to help you observe biotic function on the microscopic level, this is a perfectly reasonable way to explain the process. In fact, if myccohrizae are in relationship with vine roots, then you very nearly can say that microbial (fungal) action is introducing soil components (nutrients and some molecular residue) directly into the vine's root system, although I doubt there is microbial activity elsewhere in the plant (Joe?). From a structural-functional point of view, its a good thesis; perhaps it just needs to be updated a bit.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
I hate it when these guys talk dirty because I don't understand a word.
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
Sic transit gloria mundi.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
Touch.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Out little Ian is all grown up. ::sniff::
Joel Stewart
Joel Stewart
Is there disagreement here?
Seems to me that what's being said is that microbes/fungi are interpreting the soil for the vines. Makes perfect sense to me (though of course I may have gotten it all wrong....)
Seems to me that what's being said is that microbes/fungi are interpreting the soil for the vines. Makes perfect sense to me (though of course I may have gotten it all wrong....)
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
He still bears a more than passing resemblance to Chicolini, I dare say.
vaughn tan
vaughn tan
originally posted by VS:
"In Spanish wines there's little acidity, but there is sapidity, a word which comes from the Latin 'sapor', taste. I adore what the palomino grape shows in Jerez with that salty, umami side, that sapidity, that saline character which comes from the limestone subsoil. And I love the mouthfeel it brings, which is refreshing. There's minerality, so there's no need for acidity. When I taste great Spanish wines, I have the sensation that the mineral, even metallic, part often comes to the fore. The wines are not acid and therefore they are not hard, so that they become elegant."
does anyone have other examples of specific wines that exhibit great sapidity (vs acidity) the way selosse is describing it?
For me, the poster child for sapidity is Inocente.originally posted by vaughn tan:
does anyone have other examples of specific wines that exhibit great sapidity (vs acidity) the way selosse is describing it?
For grapes other than palomino, the first thing that comes to mind is red Burgundy, which can be very savory even in a ripe, relatively low-acid year like 2002. I recently drank a 2002 Camus Charmes-Chambertin that was noticeably low in acid, but nonetheless exhibited an strongly savory personality that I enjoyed. It wasn't a profound wine but it sparkled alongside a glutamate-heavy dish that included miso and ginger.
"Low acid" here is relative, the TA of this wine is probably an order of magnitude or more higher than Inocente. Also, some of this savoriness likely developed with aging, which further muddies the water.