Frank and his tanks (Anfore)

originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
I am not sure what this has to do with what I said.
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You described the artist's personal life as a response to descriptions of his work.

"Bernini's Costanza Affair tends to lend support to the view of Bernini as leaning toward the emotional and excessive."

Maybe in life. He also did in his work. I argued that the two did not necessarily have to go together.
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A view of the Cornaro Chapel innards was already posted by another. There was no need for further proof on the works front.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
But to ascribe a concern with the individual as Baroque, as was done earlier in this thread, misses the contribution of the Renaissance to that mental framework.
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Yup, not only misses that this mindset began with the Renaissance (with the recovery of Greek "care of the self" ideals) but that the Baroque actually worked against individuality, by stressing devotion and abnegation.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
A view of the Cornaro Chapel innards was already posted by another. There was no need for further proof on the works front.
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So, your argument is that his life is baroque?...
 
I said he was a passionate guy.

Anybody looking at his work can see that he was greatly concerned with conveying intense emotion. It is right there in the pieces for all to see. There isn't really any need to make an argument for that because I am not aware of a credible agrument against it.

It is obvious stuff.
 
zurbaran-still-life.gif
Francisco de Zurbarn, Still Life with Lemons, Oranges and a Rose, 1633
Norton Simon Museum
 
Morandi, now that's a horse (and bottles) of a different color...love his work.

PS - Is anyone else drumming fingers awaiting the return of Matteo? (the one who's not Bernini's assistant)...I'm expecting he'll tie this all together neatly.
 
originally posted by kirk wallace:


How about this? Bring back any memories?
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Nope, never saw the work in question when I was in Rome (perhaps I was doing as the Romans do?) I have no trouble seeing the emotional excess that Joel alluded to in this work, but question if its anything specific to Bernini, as it seems more a sign of the times. With greater realism in Renaissance art came more realistic depiction of the religious fervor that had perfused artistic depiction for many centuries. A comparison of that work with, e.g. da Vinci's "Adoration of the Magi" leaves me with the impression that Bernini was more adept at conveying emotion in his work, but not with any signficant difference in intent.

Just my 5 lire,
Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by kirk wallace:


How about this? Bring back any memories?
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Nope, never saw the work in question when I was in Rome (perhaps I was doing as the Romans do?)
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It is in a smallish church not far from the Piazza Barberini; definitely "vaux le voyage" as the tire people say. I can't say whether it's popular with the locals or not; it is (blessedly --ha ha) uncrowded in general.

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I have no trouble seeing the emotional excess that Joel alluded to in this work, but question if its anything specific to Bernini, as it seems more a sign of the times. With greater realism in Renaissance art came more realistic depiction of the religious fervor that had perfused artistic depiction for many centuries. A comparison of that work with, e.g. da Vinci's "Adoration of the Magi" leaves me with the impression that Bernini was more adept at conveying emotion in his work, but not with any signficant difference in intent.
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I am not going to wander into a discussion as to whether da Vinci or Bernini was the more adept, nor into what their intents may have been. Way beyond my pay grade and expertise. They both are staggering to me; with da Vinci being more mysterious and amazing to me (in a very literal sense). Bernini seems to have been more successful in selling his work to his Roman patrons and handling the changing tides of Roman politics -- he was the favorite of Urban VIII but managed not to be entirely cast aside by Innocent X, whereas, as I recall, Da Vinci didn't find continuing, solid protection until he attached himself to Francois I, relatively late in life.

And thank you Levi for that info re Bernini's personal life; never had heard that and it makes great, sad theater. In this age, we have to make do with Hiram Monserrate, and even he got away with the violence without meaningful criminal penalties, and may yet be re-elected.
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originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by kirk wallace:


How about this? Bring back any memories?
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Nope, never saw the work in question when I was in Rome (perhaps I was doing as the Romans do?) I have no trouble seeing the emotional excess that Joel alluded to in this work, but question if its anything specific to Bernini, as it seems more a sign of the times. With greater realism in Renaissance art came more realistic depiction of the religious fervor that had perfused artistic depiction for many centuries. A comparison of that work with, e.g. da Vinci's "Adoration of the Magi" leaves me with the impression that Bernini was more adept at conveying emotion in his work, but not with any signficant difference in intent.

Just my 5 lire,
Mark Lipton
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As with most of art history, it is a matter of degree and intent. Basically and to oversimplify, what happened between Leonardo and Bernini was Caravaggio. Caravaggio didn't just take from life, he took from non-idealized folk kind of life. He also used chiaroscuro as a device to heighten the sense of drama (and not just a sense of realism), and he brought to several pieces a carnal sensuality.

Say what you want about the Adoration, it is not carnal.

Bernini took up some of Caravaggio's techniques and presented them on an operatic scale, and often in stone. That bit where someone in a Caravaggio will be in the midst of pointing, grappling, throwing their arms open in exclamation? Bernini took up that concern with dynamic movement and presented it often with multiple players.

Just look at the three different Davids: Leonardo, Michelangelo, Bernini. The differences are pretty clear.
 
I would add that only Bernini's David actually implies another figure (which we know to be Goliath) through David's gesture of attack.
 
Back on the Cornelissen front, I was downright giddy to receive the following text message this afternoon:

"This is my cellphone number for this trip in the usa. Frank cornelissen"

Received 1:30PM
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Yup, not only misses that this mindset began with the Renaissance (with the recovery of Greek "care of the self" ideals) but that the Baroque actually worked against individuality, by stressing devotion and abnegation.
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The Baroque stressed "care of God" over "care of self". One of the reasons that the Church was interested in promoting the Baroque style was because it forcefully and vividly communicated its stories to the illiterate masses.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
Back on the Cornelissen front, I was downright giddy to receive the following text message this afternoon:

"This is my cellphone number for this trip in the usa. Frank cornelissen"

Received 1:30PM
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Cool, wonder if he's venturing away from the coasts on this trip... Drinking a Contadino 6 tonight to see what all this 'noise' regarding Cornelissen is about. Notes to follow later.
 
originally posted by lars makie:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
Back on the Cornelissen front, I was downright giddy to receive the following text message this afternoon:

"This is my cellphone number for this trip in the usa. Frank cornelissen"

Received 1:30PM
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Cool, wonder if he's venturing away from the coasts on this trip... Drinking a Contadino 6 tonight to see what all this 'noise' regarding Cornelissen is about. Notes to follow later.
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2008? We enjoyed very much.
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
originally posted by lars makie:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
Back on the Cornelissen front, I was downright giddy to receive the following text message this afternoon:

"This is my cellphone number for this trip in the usa. Frank cornelissen"

Received 1:30PM
Click to expand...
Cool, wonder if he's venturing away from the coasts on this trip... Drinking a Contadino 6 tonight to see what all this 'noise' regarding Cornelissen is about. Notes to follow later.
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2008? We enjoyed very much.
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Yes, believe so. Digging it so far (2 hrs in). Plan on posting something in your previous thread later.
 
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