Baker and Banker Review in SF Chron

For those who have mentioned that they don't like trying to flip through pages trying to find a wine on a list grouped by style, keep in mind we are talking about a list that could feasibly fit onto one side of one 8'' 1/2/14'' piece of paper. There is no flipping involved.

Different styles of list compliment different content. My contention is that grouping wines by grape variety flatters a list where large amounts of certain grape varieties are offered, which isn't the case here. Basically, whatever is chosen as the basis of division, there should be several options within the divisions. This list is being criticized on the basis of not having enough of certain grape varieties precisely because the list has been divided along those lines. A wine list sets the tone/boundaries for the criticism leveled at it.

A grower centric or geographic listing compliment lists where there are a lot of wines by individual producers, or where there are a lot of wines from specific regions. Neither scenario is applicable here.
 
i actually think that is a great idea.
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I've been waiting for it for years now, actually. I know it's being done with menus, so all we need now is the metadata. But as Tom says, shrinkage could be a concern.

Well it can also be confusing to find music when artists overlap the given genres/styles.
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Far less confusing than being given no indication at all if you're buying Mahler, Montgomery Gentry, or Mercyful Fate, though.

But, I don't think listing wine by country and appellation is the same thing as alphabetizing music by artist.
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But grouping it varietally, as was also suggested, is. Listing wine by country and appellation is very much like listing cars or music by country of origin, however. And how does that help, unless one's sole purchasing criterion is country of origin (i.e. "buy American")?

Because even most appellation-centric lists will distinguish sparkling dry(ish) white, dry red, and dessert wines, or something along those lines.
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Actually, no they won't, and no they don't. Sparkling, white, pink, red, dessert, maybe. For example, look at the Loire section (whether separated out or not) of most lists. The Vouvrays, Jasnires, Muscadets, and Sancerres are all piled on top of one another. Same for Alsace. Same for Germany. What have you learned about whether the wine is dry or sweet by appellation categorization? Nothing...unless you already know, which is the key point I think you're still avoiding. Because you know that some of these wines come in multiple styles, you are prepared for grouping by appellation. For someone who doesn't, loving that Bourgeois Monts-Damns and getting an off-dry, botrytized Cotat is going to be rather a shock. And heaven help someone who's enjoyed a bottle of Friulian white (maybe a nice pinot grigio) and ends up with a Zidarich in their glass. Maybe that's fine with you or me (certainly I don't much care if a wine I order ends up being a little sweeter, drier, or orange-er than I'd expected). But I think a restaurant that counts on customer shock is going to enjoy a lot of returns.

If the purpose is to educate people about wine, then it's fine to try to drill information about appellations, grapes, and producers into peoples' heads. If, on the other hand, the purpose is to sell wine -- and I think we could agree that this is a restaurant's purpose, much more than education -- it helps to provide information that's useful to the non-expert consumer.

Distinctions that are helpful for everyone because they tell you when to drink the wine.
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That not only makes no sense to me, but it doesn't bear any relation to a reality with which I'm familiar.

But 'fruity' is a whole different story. Lots of 'fruit' in Kistler Chardonnay, a dry Austrian Smaragd, and a German spatlese, but depending on how you cut the list there may be other overlapping categories and it seems prone to lead to confusion.
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Far less, if it's done well, than expecting each and every customer to know the difference between a Corton-Charlemagne and a Bouzeron.

Especially if you eat in more than one restauarant and want to find that idiosyncratically-listed wine you had in the last one.
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That's just the wine dork's version of Cougar Juice-hunting, you know.
 
A grower centric or geographic listing compliment lists where there are a lot of wines by individual producers, or where there are a lot of wines from specific regions. Neither scenario is applicable here.
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Yes, exactly. If you're sitting in Rochecorbon and there are dozens (or hundreds) of Vouvray and Montlouis on a list with only token representation from elsewhere (it's France, so obviously there will be at least one Bordeaux), it makes sense to group and categorize them first by appellation, then by style and sweetness. A list in Minneapolis with three chenins -- Huet Clos de Bourg "1er Trie", Dry Creek Chenin Blanc, Ken Forrester Chenin Blanc "The FMC" -- has just given you three wildly different wines with no help for anyone unfamiliar with all three. Oops, you didn't want oak in your chenin blanc? Tough luck.
 
originally posted by Thor:
I admit I find it amusing to see all us wine geeks saying that we find lists not written under the assumption of expert-level knowledge clunky, viscerally bothersome, and so forth. But I think that were we not experts on a different subject, we'd be confused by lists in those realms that organized themselves the way we want wine lists to be organized.

Let's say you don't know anything, or much of anything, about music. You walk into a store (let's assume for the sake of argument that there are still physical stores) and there's all the music, alphabetized by artist. All of it. Coltrane, Coldplay, Copland, Court Yard Hounds, one right after the other. Hope your tastes in music are catholic, because that's four completely different genres right there. Or maybe the store is helpful and organizes their music by country of origin. Or by price. Or by record label. Very helpful, right? Maybe iTunes should just offer a big list of songs, grouped by year, or artist, or country, but not sorted by genre.

If not music, then peppercorns. Stereo equipment. GPS units. Cheese. Cars. Let's see a list of all the cars Nissan makes and try to buy one. Is it a sports car, an SUV? Seats two, seats kids? No, you're not allowed that information, just the producer and the model number. Choose wisely.

I understand wanting expert-targeted lists if you're already an expert. I find them much easier myself. But I'm not a normal customer, and the restaurant isn't going to prosper if its counting on Disorderlies to fill its seats.

What we really need are metatagged, customizable digital lists. So when you sit down, you're handed a tablet organized the way Levi suggests, but if you're the Monkey you can switch to a producer-centric view, and if you're Rahsaan you can switch to an appellation-centric view, and if you're Plotnicki you can switch to a price-centric view (highest first).
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What we really need is our own restaurant!
 
I've been advocating a non-linear pricing strategy that conforms to what we know from behavioral economics about how people value things. Unfortunately, that falls on deaf ears.
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Not all. Kevin Zraly, for example, was an early advocate of variable margins, depending on the wine and price segment.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton: A grower centric or geographic listing compliment lists where there are a lot of wines by individual producers, or where there are a lot of wines from specific regions. Neither scenario is applicable here.
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Fair enough.
 
Adour on 55th has had a searchable, sortable e-list built into their bar since they opened a couple of years ago. The user interface is maddening, but I suppose no one walks off with the bar.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
Adour on 55th has had a searchable, sortable e-list built into their bar since they opened a couple of years ago. The user interface is maddening, but I suppose no one walks off with the bar.
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how's the food, is it worth it?
 
Monvinic in Barcelona has their wine-list on touchscreen, sorted whichever way you choose, with pictures, producer info, etc., etc. It's still not a place I'd return to. But then, I don't own a Kindle either.
 
originally posted by scottreiner:
originally posted by SFJoe:
Adour on 55th has had a searchable, sortable e-list built into their bar since they opened a couple of years ago. The user interface is maddening, but I suppose no one walks off with the bar.
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how's the food, is it worth it?
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Not to me.

There were some wine deals when they opened, from the old stock in the hotel, but they are mostly gone.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
Collin,

Your list is very well priced at the high end and you offer a very wide selection of by the glass pours on which there is more waste. You don't have anything to apologize for in terms of pricing. Those who would begrudge you a few dollars on the Pinon might just as easily praise you for a very low Selosse price.

I myself struggle every day with bridging the distance between guest comfort level and the bottles I think pair well with the food. Mostly I think that as Paul G. of Hearth fame said, the problem with most wine lists is that they are lists. I would encourage you to think outside the AOC on a page way of conveying your offerings. I went ahead and listed the pours in order of weight, with a corresponding color code next to each option. The deeper the yellow or red, the bigger and denser the wine. I also provide brief descriptons for pours. And I ditched straight ahead geographic or by price listings and grouped up items on the list by style (Elegant and Aromatic, Big and Full Flavored, Layered and Complex, Mature and Developed). This, in addition to a lot of staff training, and a willingness to pour small sample tastes of by the glass options, has really helped.

Guests want to come in and feel comfortable. If you were to change the layout of your list so that people looking at it feel smarter and empowered rather than befuddled and adrift, I think everyone involved would be happier for it.

I also think you break with your own theme and offer the Burgundy and Bordeaux straight laces at the end and thus the way you have it you set up this Kid's Stuff vs. The Grown Up's Table false dichotomy that only encourages people to look at the previous wines as second best. Don't break with your own theme.

Because the list you are offering is actually quite friendly in terms of pricing and pour options. If you were to look at innovative ways of couching that list in a more accessible format, you might meet with more frequent praise. I think that you are not well served by grouping items by variety/appellation because in general you don't have more than 5 options for a given variety. That just highlights your list in the wrong way. The format makes the options seem more constricted than they are.

Like I can tell you that your listing format is not complimentary to the content, or I can tell you that your list has all these beautiful, bangin' curves, but is tucked into too tight skinny jeans that don't flatter the ass.

People are going to remember and appreciate the more accessible phrasing.

Just a friendly suggestion.
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Hi Levi. So yeah - the Bordeaux & Burgs are separate, because they are wines I've only got a few bottles of & that list changes on a near-daily basis. Makes it a little easier. It's not my intention to present those wines as being any more "grown-up" than those on the main listing. To the contrary - That section has most of the wines I've little interest in, personally. Bon Pasteur? I'm thrilled to offer it to my guests, but have no interest in the wine.

With that said, we are currently reformatting into a small book & I'm playing around with the arrangement of the wines. I think it will really help.
 
I'm not able to speak with full candor yet, but suffice it to say that this thread might have the ability to specifically affect the direction of a list in Boston.

Thanks for the perspectives.
 
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