Baker and Banker Review in SF Chron
- Thread starter Joe Dressner
- Start date
Levi Dalton
Levi Dalton
My experience of the '96 Oddero normale would argue for drinking soon, which surprised me.
Tom Glasgow
Thomas W Glasgow
What about the Borgogno?
Cory Cartwright
Cory Cartwright
Sorry folks, I was mistaken, wine list sucks according to Diane Teitelbaum (from a comment on my blog):
Hi. I am the evil witch. I have 28 years in the biz as consultant to the trade and collectors; writer (major newspapers and mags); contributed to Jancis Robinsons Oxford Encyl for the first and the second book, teaching wine in colleges and for international trade orgs, the consumer, wait staffs; and an appraiser accepted in legal courts, IRS, insurance companies and others. I have known and been friends with Master Somm Demi-God and US Founder Fred Dame for more than 20 years. I am Bauers researcher-consultant on the lists but he goes and he writes. I hope you all enjoyed playing Crucify the Critic a long time favorite game. Does it occur to you that Bauer is beyond excellent and widely respected? He has the ethics to consult an expert on any area in which he is not totally educated. He is the protector of the public and never pontificates.
SOThe list may make all the younger wine geeks and Somm students hot and wet but its not a good restaurant list. There are no helper things descriptions, rankings by weight and style, color codes or anything else on the list. The list is quite esoteric and like Bauer, did not discuss or suggest matchings. I really think it a Mine is weirder or bigger than yours list. If you have spent even an hour talking to these guys starting out you immediately see the hubris and arrogance. Should the customer have to work like a dog to order? Does the somm go to EVERY table? Doubt it. The diner can be horribly disappointed if not brave enough to ask questions. And how about the owners/ backers? How many wine sales have they lost to intimidated diners? What is the list profitability? The restaurant is a for profit business. Must it be so odd that there is not even a gesture to have something on the list for Mom and Pop?
Where we taking about a wine bar known for adventure, or talking about a private collection no prob. But this self-indulgent list is just plain rude. Dinners love to learn about food and wine sometimes. Other times they just want a quiet dinner, and would sign up for a seminar to get this heavy.
Diane Teitelbaum
Comment here:
Hi. I am the evil witch. I have 28 years in the biz as consultant to the trade and collectors; writer (major newspapers and mags); contributed to Jancis Robinsons Oxford Encyl for the first and the second book, teaching wine in colleges and for international trade orgs, the consumer, wait staffs; and an appraiser accepted in legal courts, IRS, insurance companies and others. I have known and been friends with Master Somm Demi-God and US Founder Fred Dame for more than 20 years. I am Bauers researcher-consultant on the lists but he goes and he writes. I hope you all enjoyed playing Crucify the Critic a long time favorite game. Does it occur to you that Bauer is beyond excellent and widely respected? He has the ethics to consult an expert on any area in which he is not totally educated. He is the protector of the public and never pontificates.
SOThe list may make all the younger wine geeks and Somm students hot and wet but its not a good restaurant list. There are no helper things descriptions, rankings by weight and style, color codes or anything else on the list. The list is quite esoteric and like Bauer, did not discuss or suggest matchings. I really think it a Mine is weirder or bigger than yours list. If you have spent even an hour talking to these guys starting out you immediately see the hubris and arrogance. Should the customer have to work like a dog to order? Does the somm go to EVERY table? Doubt it. The diner can be horribly disappointed if not brave enough to ask questions. And how about the owners/ backers? How many wine sales have they lost to intimidated diners? What is the list profitability? The restaurant is a for profit business. Must it be so odd that there is not even a gesture to have something on the list for Mom and Pop?
Where we taking about a wine bar known for adventure, or talking about a private collection no prob. But this self-indulgent list is just plain rude. Dinners love to learn about food and wine sometimes. Other times they just want a quiet dinner, and would sign up for a seminar to get this heavy.
Diane Teitelbaum
Comment here:
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Scott Kraft
Scott Kraft
Nice work, Coad!
I have the impression that she has had so many roles in the industry that she has a hard time keeping them straight. Is the level of profit generated by the list really a concern of the reviewer? The owners and the investors presumably look after that to their satisfaction.
Her position gives a flavor of the many roles, blending together--the training of staff and buyers through the years, the weary flow of commerce and appraisal jobs. It's a little jaded and backward-looking, and it saddens me.
It's quite sad that she thinks every list needs to adapt to Ma & Pa Kettle, assuming that the staff is AWOL. And the intuition about arrogance and hubris assumes facts not in evidence in this case, since she's only looking at the list and imagining the personality behind it. I believe I'm correct that she hasn't seen how the list is dealt with in the restaurant. It seems she's met some of the wrong element in her aeons in the biz, too bad.
But not a word in her missive about whether the wine goes with the food, which you might think would matter in a restaurant review. Maybe she should go with Bauer rather than reading lists at a distance.
Her position gives a flavor of the many roles, blending together--the training of staff and buyers through the years, the weary flow of commerce and appraisal jobs. It's a little jaded and backward-looking, and it saddens me.
It's quite sad that she thinks every list needs to adapt to Ma & Pa Kettle, assuming that the staff is AWOL. And the intuition about arrogance and hubris assumes facts not in evidence in this case, since she's only looking at the list and imagining the personality behind it. I believe I'm correct that she hasn't seen how the list is dealt with in the restaurant. It seems she's met some of the wrong element in her aeons in the biz, too bad.
But not a word in her missive about whether the wine goes with the food, which you might think would matter in a restaurant review. Maybe she should go with Bauer rather than reading lists at a distance.
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
Was there last week and the wines we had (from the by-the-glass, which includes more than what's on the wine list) matched perfectly with the food. The place is small enough that I imagine the the som does visit every table, but Collin can answer that for himself.
Food's good, too.
Bauer beyond excellent and widely respected? Not in the circles I travel in. Often beyond ridiculous and widely disparaged.
Food's good, too.
Bauer beyond excellent and widely respected? Not in the circles I travel in. Often beyond ridiculous and widely disparaged.
Tom Glasgow
Thomas W Glasgow
She must be friends with the Ital. Dr. in Philosophy from Barbera 2010. I look at wine lists online as much as the next person, but it's only part of a beverage program. Having someone review the wines solely on the basis of perusing the list from Texas (edited) is absurd.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
So, Ms. T rants about the lack of extra verbiage on the list -- fair enough, I suppose, at least she has the list to look at -- but the rest of her arguments are made up out of whole cloth. Speculations about the restaurant's service, the owners' profits, the sommelier's pride, and Ma Kettle's lack of adventurousness have no place in a review... we, the readers, had been hoping for facts.
And, as others have observed, not a word about whether the wines work well with the food.
And, as others have observed, not a word about whether the wines work well with the food.
Joe Dressner
Joe Dressner
Has she tried any of the wines?
Or is the quality of the wines on the list irrelevant to her?
Or is the quality of the wines on the list irrelevant to her?
Steve Edmunds
Steve Edmunds
get a clue, girl...
Jay Miller
Jay Miller
A nice selection of Drouhins there. One could do a lot worse.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Yes, but a 2005 Clos des Mouches is probably not going to be drinking well now and they're going to ask a lot of $$$ for it.
Collin Casey
Collin-Peter Casey
I'll admit, I was surprised by her comment.
One thing about which I agree with her, is that the list could be arranged differently. It was my owners' wish that we have a no-frills, one page arrangement to start, but I think we could be well served by something that made a little more sense to someone who didn't feel like talking to me. An Ellenbogen-esque (weight, profile) arrangement can make decision making easier. I fully agree.
With that said, I'll clarify that I sure am there to talk about the list, and I make every effort to stop at each table. I'm also the GM & it's a tiny space, so a stop at each table has more or less got to happen, regardless. The wine is a nice "in" to see how a table is doing.
Moreover, I do put work into training my staff. In addition to weekly (optional) wine classes, nightly tastings, and monthly (mandatory) classes, we write a detailed description of every wine (kept on the floor during service) as a group. I feel that we'll all understand the wines better in writing our own manual, complete with pairings, origin, winemaking, history, and so on. The staff is into it. I am lucky that they're so enthusiastic.
Lastly, I didn't think that the focus of the list was so hard to see. It's merely a list that isn't about curating "greatness", but rather about food & transparency. They're all honest (largely natural) wines that belong in my restaurant, even if they're California Merlot. Or yes, Gamay.
The restaurant is thriving. The list is profitable. Our pairings get raves. No clue why she chose the personal attack. Shouldn't she be the gracious elder & I the arrogant hipster?
One thing about which I agree with her, is that the list could be arranged differently. It was my owners' wish that we have a no-frills, one page arrangement to start, but I think we could be well served by something that made a little more sense to someone who didn't feel like talking to me. An Ellenbogen-esque (weight, profile) arrangement can make decision making easier. I fully agree.
With that said, I'll clarify that I sure am there to talk about the list, and I make every effort to stop at each table. I'm also the GM & it's a tiny space, so a stop at each table has more or less got to happen, regardless. The wine is a nice "in" to see how a table is doing.
Moreover, I do put work into training my staff. In addition to weekly (optional) wine classes, nightly tastings, and monthly (mandatory) classes, we write a detailed description of every wine (kept on the floor during service) as a group. I feel that we'll all understand the wines better in writing our own manual, complete with pairings, origin, winemaking, history, and so on. The staff is into it. I am lucky that they're so enthusiastic.
Lastly, I didn't think that the focus of the list was so hard to see. It's merely a list that isn't about curating "greatness", but rather about food & transparency. They're all honest (largely natural) wines that belong in my restaurant, even if they're California Merlot. Or yes, Gamay.
The restaurant is thriving. The list is profitable. Our pairings get raves. No clue why she chose the personal attack. Shouldn't she be the gracious elder & I the arrogant hipster?
scottreiner
scott reiner
Collin,
I never go to SF, but if I do I will visit your place. The list has exactly what one would want with the food, with a number of wines I know and love. Don't let the barbarians get you down. There are plenty of places in this world with crappy, ill-considered wine lists. Thank you for not being one of them!
I never go to SF, but if I do I will visit your place. The list has exactly what one would want with the food, with a number of wines I know and love. Don't let the barbarians get you down. There are plenty of places in this world with crappy, ill-considered wine lists. Thank you for not being one of them!
That's awesome.
You are lucky to have such an engaged staff. That's a rarity in a business full of miscreants and bottom-feeders. It's depressing how little interest some staff show in wine or even food. That's the true beauty of the SF/NY scene. You have people who have given the trade the respect it deserves and are actually treating it as a profession instead of treading water until their active/writing/painting/modeling/pot dealing career takes off.
She's a fucking idiot who's time has obviously passed. Pay no heed.
I think everyone here likes your list. My gripe was with prices. Too may people get caught up in margin when it is a pure cash flow business.
As a friend of mine once said, I can give you any margin you want. You'll go out of business, but the wine margin will be spot on.