3 X 2

originally posted by Thor:
I'd be more interested in actual than reported, based on what producers have told me. I don't think we're going to learn anything useful from the former. That said, I agree with you that alcohol sticks out more often in Austrians. I think the Alsatians are more routinely heavy, though, which is partly a result of the alcohol. More dry extract to balance the heat? More sugar? Both? I don't know, but probably.
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Funny, I have the same reaction. Maybe higher acids in the bigger Austrians make them seem less heavy than the bigger Alsatians?
 
originally posted by Jim Hanlon:


That's a beautiful wine, Joe. Guilhaume and I drank one in France last October. My sense was that aging would be rewarded.
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Yes, it's great. I had one fairly recently. My complete reference point for vin jaune, not that I am so deeply experienced. And I agree, many miles to go for that wine it would seem.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Jim Hanlon:


That's a beautiful wine, Joe. Guilhaume and I drank one in France last October. My sense was that aging would be rewarded.
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Yes, it's great. I had one fairly recently. My complete reference point for vin jaune, not that I am so deeply experienced. And I agree, many miles to go for that wine it would seem.
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I expect you sourced them in France? We had to do some begging to get a bottle in Paris.
 
originally posted by Jim Hanlon:

I expect you sourced them in France? We had to do some begging to get a bottle in Paris.
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Yes. As a frequent rider of the NYC subways, my begging technique is quite advanced.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Jim Hanlon:

I expect you sourced them in France? We had to do some begging to get a bottle in Paris.
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Yes. As a frequent rider of the NYC subways, my begging technique is quite advanced.
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You must be quite convincing. My impression was that one of us had to offer to sever one of our own limbs if we wanted a second bottle.
 
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
Would evaporation increase alcohol anyway?
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Interesting question. Doesn't the humidity and temperature level change the ratio of alcohol to water evaporation? I have read that Cognac and Armagnac producers shift casks around in warehouses and fiddle with the humidity to adjust the balance. And I think Paul Avril installed a humidifying system in their Chateauneuf cellars for much the same reason.
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I was thinking of Australian dessert wines which leave the vats open (the angels's share)...and maybe madeira too? I can see how evaporation concentrates the wine, but not sure if the concentration extends to alcohol as well. Those wines are closer to 17% if I recall correctly. Seems it should be simple enough question...I mean wines that exceed in alcohol are often decanted to "let the alc. blow off"...whether that's just the sensation of heat blowing off, or actual alcohol blowing off (lessening) that would suggest just the opposite action.

The other thing I want to ask the winemaker about it whether or not this was a wine made sous-voile. I did not get that nutty/oatmealy note I've gotten from vj's so I expect not...so it may just be the distributor talking out the side of his mouth by bringing up vj in the same breath.

My limited experience with Smaradgs doesn't qualify me to say anything accurate here, but entry to mid level wines being even, I detect more alcohol coming from the Alsatians, over the Austrians, even with the former's high glycerol levels. One reason why I gave up on Alsace. The other reason was that there are so many more dinner table food friendly wines from Austria, imho...not just gruner, but riesling too.
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
The other reason was that there are so many more dinner table food friendly wines from Austria, imho...not just gruner, but riesling too.
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Really? I find quite the opposite. Maybe we are drinking different wines from Alsace? Or maybe we eat differently? Don't judge a book by its Zind Humbrecht. A nice, restrained Pinot Gris or Gewurtztraminer are delicious with food and Riesling is a no-brainer. The key is the word "restrained" and that characteristic is not ubiquitous in Alsace.

To Thor's point, yes, I guess "advertised" alcohol levels are of limited (no?) value, but my home chemistry set is a little old so I can't do much better.
 
No, you're right, partially at least....the lower alc rieslings from Alsace were enjoyable well enough...even the occsional 12.5% Turckheims from ZH have been pleasurable with food like fresh steamed alaskan king crab (oh yeah!). But there's also an umami component I often find in Austrian gv's and ries's, that I don't see at all in Alsatian whites, which I find broadens potential pairings.
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:

I can see how evaporation concentrates the wine, but not sure if the concentration extends to alcohol as well. Those wines are closer to 17% if I recall correctly. Seems it should be simple enough question...I mean wines that exceed in alcohol are often decanted to "let the alc. blow off"...whether that's just the sensation of heat blowing off, or actual alcohol blowing off (lessening) that would suggest just the opposite action.
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The lowest boiling liquid in wine is a 95:5 mixture of alcohol to water (known as an azeotrope) that boils at a lower temperature than either of its two component liquids [this also is the source of the limit of 190 proof for distilled spirits]. So, at 0% relative humidity, you'd lose alcohol to water in a 95:5 ratio, thereby reducing the alcohol level of the wine. Moreover, as atmospheric humidity increases, water re-enters the wine from the air through condensation. In the extreme at 100% relative humidity, for every molecule of water that evaporates from the wine, another molecule re-enters it through condensation, resulting in a loss only of alcohol through evaporation.

Mark Lipton
 
Isn't the sensible answer that Alsace and Austria both make a range of wines that can be heavy and alcoholic at times. The cross-regional comparisons are very vulnerable to sample bias.
 
Yes, for some reason I still have an internal response when people are talking past each other.

It's one reason I avoid CNN/FOX/MSNBC and why I sometimes get animated when my students start drifting.
 
But, there may be some interesting predictions for the future from these cross-regional comparisons if I understand correctly via Thor that the heavy Alsatians are a relatively-recent phenomenon? Whereas Austrian heavyweights are more of a historic/classic style?

Which means that Points Pressure is more intense in Alsace? Global warming is more intense in Alsace?
 
I couldn't possibly say if things are worse, better, or average in Alsace. I can only return to this: wines that were already considered heavy from grapes that are rarely planted in places where heavy wines are made are not particularly suited for a permanent temperature uptick.

(I still wonder why the pinot noir hasn't gotten better, but I suspect if it was planted on all the best sites and treated with the care with which riesling's treated, it might already have.)
 
So...maybe in the case of the Pas Sage, the pinot was indeed given a plot with exposure favorable enough to allow it to ripen to Cali levels. That's my question. Otherwise, I can't figure out how he got it that high. I was wondering if evaporation is reponsible for an increase in alcohol and Mark (thank you) seems to think his buddy Henry (who might just be a friend of Murphy) has already proven that alochol evaporates, thereby driving a stake into the heart of my musings as to whether not topping off barrels automatically increases alcohol. I guess I'll just need to write the winemaker...
 
Moreover, as atmospheric humidity increases, water re-enters the wine from the air through condensation. In the extreme at 100% relative humidity, for every molecule of water that evaporates from the wine, another molecule re-enters it through condensation, resulting in a loss only of alcohol through evaporation.

Mark Lipton
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Hence the Avrils' interest in humidifying the cellar, to increase the rate of alcohol evaporation relative to the water, thus decreasing the alcohol in the wine, no?
 
I can say that, somewhat counter-intuitively, the best pinot noir I've had from Alsace was from the northernmost grand cru (the Steinklotz; a fascinating balance of delicacy, fruit, and minerality), and almost all the next best pinot noirs have been ross. But the problems with Alsatian pinot noir run the gamut, from under- to overripe, from too acidic to too goopy, from overly spare to lavishly wooded. Why not try oxidation? At this point, it couldn't hurt.

But as for the alcohol, I really don't think you need to look beyond the usual reasons. A producer I won't name got a pinot noir, for which they are not known, over 15% (for which they are also not known) without even trying very hard in a recent year of heated repute. It actually did taste a little Santa Rita Hills-ish in some way. And it was the second time in three years. Best you don't ask about their gewurztraminer in those same years.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
But, there may be some interesting predictions for the future from these cross-regional comparisons if I understand correctly via Thor that the heavy Alsatians are a relatively-recent phenomenon? Whereas Austrian heavyweights are more of a historic/classic style?
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I'm not very knowledgable about Austrian wine, but my impression is that what is produced and considered marketable has changed a lot in the past three decades, due to fallout from the glycol scandal, changes in export markets and changes in what both the Austian market and its producers expect from themselves.
 
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