At what cost yeast?

originally posted by Alice F.:
Oswaldo,, don't believe everything they tell you.
Visited Mascarello in 05, was told they do not use indigenous and hadn't for years because of the bereft way they farm. Ceretto hasn't used indigenous at least since Bruno's brother retired. It's been ages. Massolino is moving in that direction and I highly doubt La Spinetta.
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Indeed, I totally wondered if I wasn't being "misled" by those who said ambient, but it was hard to feel misled by the traditionalists who surprised by saying they purchased.

BTW, I totally adored Cascina Cornale.
 
originally posted by Thor:
Kay, as a matter of fact, not far off. Is that a typical characteristic of the RC212 yeast?
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I think so. I tried it once on a homemade wine because I was getting discouraged by VA. The wine tasted like cloves and then after a few years it turned into cough syrup. Really strange.
 
Jeff--- chemically farmed. When Mauro took me through Monprivato he said, the land was so spent chemically that they didn't risk using native yeasts. He said that would change. i don't know the update.
 
originally posted by Thor:
Oswaldo, you can add Brovia to the ambient category, though occasionally a stuck dolcetto has received an inoculated kick in the pants.

Kay, as a matter of fact, not far off. Is that a typical characteristic of the RC212 yeast?
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Any info on the subject regarding Elio Grasso?
 
originally posted by Mark Davis:
Wowza...Oswaldo, shocking...

Does the 'real' Conterno use ambient as well?
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Alas, I only visited the 'fake' one... But I'd take all ambient claims with a grain of salt, given how surprisingly prevalent the use of purchased yeasts was among traditionalists.

A prominent winemaker who we visited in Portugal in January said he always replied "purchased" in the name of honesty, even in years when it was ambient, because if you've ever used purchased as much as once, its descendants will be in the cellar atmosphere and, even if you never purchase again, you can never know which ones actually did the trick.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
if you've ever used purchased as much as once, its descendants will be in the cellar atmosphere and, even if you never purchase again, you can never know which ones actually did the trick.
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Well, you could, but you'd have to take some time out for microbiology during a busy period in the year.
 
SFJoe - suspect not so simple? For the Mosel, I'm very suspicious of those claiming spontaneous fermentations for all their wines. Not many perky fellas around in early December when some of the last grapes come in.
 
originally posted by Yixin:
SFJoe - suspect not so simple? For the Mosel, I'm very suspicious of those claiming spontaneous fermentations for all their wines. Not many perky fellas around in early December when some of the last grapes come in.
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Not sure what you mean? Seasonal changes in yeast populations? Beats me. But spores can hang out for quite a while. And quite rare species can multiply to a point where they contribute significantly to a fermentation, whether native or cultured.
 
Any info on the subject regarding Elio Grasso?
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Nope, sorry. I do think, having done this most recent trip and others, and generally slipping the question into the conversation whenever they're in the market and I'm actually invited, that one should assume inoculated with Piedmontese producers unless specifically corrected to the contrary. But that's an assumption, not a comprehensive survey.
 
Luc,

Elio Grasso's son Gianluca tells me that he doesn't add yeast in vintages when he thinks it will go smoothly without the addition, which is to say that he did add yeast in '02 and '03. I think he said ML goes by itself, I would have to check that.

I am surprised you didn't ask him that the other day...
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Yixin:
SFJoe - suspect not so simple? For the Mosel, I'm very suspicious of those claiming spontaneous fermentations for all their wines. Not many perky fellas around in early December when some of the last grapes come in.
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Not sure what you mean? Seasonal changes in yeast populations? Beats me. But spores can hang out for quite a while. And quite rare species can multiply to a point where they contribute significantly to a fermentation, whether native or cultured.
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I didn't think it was quite so easy to identify and isolate the yeasts responsible, but I'm no chemist. And I've been told that the populations vary from fuder to fuder within a cellar.

How important are starting pH and ambient temperatures in determining the route of natural fermentations? A couple of Mosel cellarmasters claimed that their yeast populations had changed over the years, to the point that they were more comfortable using some Geisenheim yeasts to kickstart the process (with some of the attendant aromatic effects*) rather than running the risk of VA in a higher temp and pH environment. I should note that they weren't trying to defend their use of cultured yeasts as such, even though the "spontan" dogma has gained ground over the years.

*It takes a few days of calibration and about 30-50 wines of similar weight, but some of the yeasts produce flavours which I find atypical - e.g. a 8g/l total acid, 85-90 oeschle Sptlese with flamboyant pineapple notes. Of course that wine was one of the top wines at the auction a couple of years ago after the judicious addition of some Eiswein to amp it up. And it's aging well - fresh as cherry blossoms and the pineapple is receding.
 
I don't recall seeing this additional complication mentioned in this thread: I was under the impression that yeast populations would wax and wane over the course of the alcoholic fermentation (due to slight changes in the food supply, temperature, competition with the others). So, if I buy a block of yeast X, do I toss it all in at once? Does it come divided in bags to be added at different times?
 
Yixin, I'm going to repeat a conversation I had in Asti, but summarize it: if the ambient yeast does X or Y, then it does. The "point," for those who prefer ambient yeast, is satisfied by its use. To control and direct the result is to wish to use inoculated yeast, whether or not one actually uses inoculated yeast.

It's not qualitative. That's such a key factor to understand.
 
originally posted by Thor:

It's not qualitative. That's such a key factor to understand.
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In simple truth, I'm not sure what you mean by that. I hate to ask you to expound at length, but could you give me two more sentences?
 
I'm a little (OK, a lot) drunk, so I reserve the right to rewrite these later. But here you go (and you really think I can restrict myself to a length limit?):

Those who believe that yeast is Important (cap intended) add or don't add it for reasons that are more stylistic than they are qualitative, because they're pursuing an overall philosophy of un-fucked-with wine that is more important than "making the best wine we can."

The point is to be ambient, because it fits in with the philosophy. The point is not to be ambient because it's the One True Path to enlightenment and "better" wine.

It's about intent. It's not necessarily about quality.

More?
 
Thor, I think I don't understand. I also think I agree with you - many of the winemakers I admire most (and have long conversations with) are genuinely trying to make what they think is the best wine possible, without subscribing to some dogma. Some of them take more risks with their wines, others choose to reduce those risks (e.g. stuck fermentations) with inoculated yeasts. There are however some yeasts, when added, dominate the end result to such an extent that I think it's worth questioning their (mis)use.
 
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