At what cost yeast?

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
I don't recall seeing this additional complication mentioned in this thread: I was under the impression that yeast populations would wax and wane over the course of the alcoholic fermentation (due to slight changes in the food supply, temperature, competition with the others). So, if I buy a block of yeast X, do I toss it all in at once? Does it come divided in bags to be added at different times?

Jeff, yeast nutrients (DAP, Fermaid K, etc.) are often also added at various stages of the fermentation to ensure the yeast are healthy and well feed from start to finish.

If you want to learn more about these products and how they are used take a look at the Scott Laboratories website:


The picture on the cover of the catalog pretty much says it all.
 
originally posted by Thor:
I'm a little (OK, a lot) drunk, so I reserve the right to rewrite these later. But here you go (and you really think I can restrict myself to a length limit?):

Those who believe that yeast is Important (cap intended) add or don't add it for reasons that are more stylistic than they are qualitative, because they're pursuing an overall philosophy of un-fucked-with wine that is more important than "making the best wine we can."

The point is to be ambient, because it fits in with the philosophy. The point is not to be ambient because it's the One True Path to enlightenment and "better" wine.

It's about intent. It's not necessarily about quality.

More?
Curious. If you ask many of the folks I know in France or California, it's totally qualitative--a guy like Marc Ollivier definitely thinks he makes better wine with ambient yeasts. He would tell you he sees other benefits: ambient yeast is part of terroir expression, people made wine for a very long time without cultured yeast, why add something to the wine if you don't need to, and so on, but at the end of the day he prefers the outcome.

I don't know if he'd capitalize anything in the above.
 
originally posted by Thor:
I'm a little (OK, a lot) drunk, so I reserve the right to rewrite these later. But here you go (and you really think I can restrict myself to a length limit?):

Those who believe that yeast is Important (cap intended) add or don't add it for reasons that are more stylistic than they are qualitative, because they're pursuing an overall philosophy of un-fucked-with wine that is more important than "making the best wine we can."

The point is to be ambient, because it fits in with the philosophy. The point is not to be ambient because it's the One True Path to enlightenment and "better" wine.

It's about intent. It's not necessarily about quality.

More?

But it IS about quality. And 'qualities' that you cannot get from a bag. Its about capturing small bits of uniqueness that only your vineyard and cellar can provide. Its using that season's microflora; each year's is different, and each year's fermentations are different. And they change over the course of a harvest, too.

What I would get in a bag is someone else's terroir, engineered to provide consistent results. Adding packaged yeasts is a crutch, made necessary by years of herbicide and fungicide spraying which has rendered many vineyards sterile. Of course, if I didn't think that terroir is real or important, or I sprayed my vineyard, then I'd be stupid not to use packaged yeasts. It does make things easier and seemingly more controlled. (and isn't that really what its really all about?)

The inverse is also true.

I think using ambient yeasts is "making the best wine I can".

But that's just my philosophy.
 
I'm expressing this badly, I think. Maybe I should try it again, without the pinot noir, and the Muscadet, and the bubbly, and the Rubentis, and the Laudun...

I think that many producers who make an active choice for ambient yeasts think they are making better wines as a result, for whatever personal values of better they hold. It has not been my experience that, when discussing this subject with producers who've made that active choice -- and I want to specify "active" because some producers just keep doing it as they've been taught, or because to do it any other way seems nontraditional and odd -- they make that choice because they have this series of thoughts: "I want to make better wines than I'm making; I should switch to ambient yeast, and then they'll be better."

Usually, the internal (or external) discussion that leads to that choice is not one related to quality, but part of a larger or smaller change in approach and intent that may span both farming and oenology. Something more like this: "I want to do this stuff better, and hopefully I'll end up with better wine as a result," again for whatever personal values of "better" one holds in each instance. My argument is that those two uses of "better" aren't necessarily the same thing, and that while the latter is probably (but doesn't have to) be qualitative, the former is more complicated, and might not even be qualitative at all.

The reason I'm talking about this here in this context is because so many people fail to make this choice because they can't deal with the uncertainty that results. It's a philosophical hurdle they can't crest because they feel that control is necessary for quality, and they're unable to conceive of uncertainty being a path to quality. For someone who goes ambient, they kinda have to embrace that uncertainty, at least in the beginning. "I am going to make a better wine" as a declarative philosophy, to me, inherently assumes control of the process, and while that's not the opposite of going ambient, it's at least headed in a different direction.

Of course, there must be some people who did have the first hypothetical conversation in their heads, just as they've had it for sulfur (I'm pretty sure the barbera producer we visited did in fact have that thought, re: sulfites), or while choosing to plant more tannat and less merlot, or whatever. But I mostly haven't talked to those people, I guess.

Gotta go drink some more wine. I'm sure I can bring more confusion to this conversation when I return.
 
originally posted by Oliver McCrum:
Luc,

Elio Grasso's son Gianluca tells me that he doesn't add yeast in vintages when he thinks it will go smoothly without the addition, which is to say that he did add yeast in '02 and '03. I think he said ML goes by itself, I would have to check that.

I am surprised you didn't ask him that the other day...
I was off that day.
Thank you for the info.
I will try to contact him for more details,I was not able to find much on google.it.
 
originally posted by Hank Beckmeyer:
Adding packaged yeasts is a crutch, made necessary by years of herbicide and fungicide spraying which has rendered many vineyards sterile. Of course, if I didn't think that terroir is real or important, or I sprayed my vineyard, then I'd be stupid not to use packaged yeasts. It does make things easier and seemingly more controlled. (and isn't that really what its really all about?)
Also worth mentioning machine harvesting. Get too much MOG in there and you'll need powerful yeast.
 
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