Golden oldies, inc. 1925 Rioja, 1961 QdC, 1975 TBA

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Great notes, Oswaldo. Glad to heat that the Old Man Riscal was still alive and kicking.

This note reminded me:
1975 Ernst Jungkenn Rheinhessen Dienheimer Paterhof Siegerrebe und Huxelrebe Trockebeerenauslese
We began with a strange bird and ended with an even stranger one. This TBA was made from Siegerrebe and Huxelrebe which are, in turn, crosses between Madeleine Angevine & Gewurztraminer and Chasselas & Courtiller Musque, respectively (thanks, David). First shock was on pouring. Its red! Botrytis and musty dishrag, the latter blowing off rapidly. Strong molasses taste, acidity not quite up to the sweetness, but lovely fruit. Cant say I tasted any tertiary complexities that might justify the aging of wine made from these grapes, but still reverence-worthy.
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...of a wine I drank in 2007:

Schottenhof 1989 TBA "Optima & Ortega", St. Johanner Abtey - 4 393 154 01 90, mahogany in color, the first scent is musty orange rind, followed by brandied cherries, then sweet pineapple, and omigod it's just one rich thing after another

Also odd Germanic whites -- ortega is Muller-Thurgau x Siegerrebe and optima is (Riesling x Silvaner) x Muller-Thurgau -- but these had done a splendid job of becoming something kaleidoscopic and lovely.
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Fascinating, so Ortega and Optima are hybrids made from hybrids. I wonder how long they can keep this up before they begin to sprout hairs or something.

You called them Germanic whites but your TBA was mahogany colored, so I looked them up in google images and saw that only Siegerrebe, of all the ones mentioned, is dark skinned, so must be the only source of that color.
 
Fascinating, so Ortega and Optima are hybrids made from hybrids. I wonder how long they can keep this up before they begin to sprout hairs or something.
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When we get to a grape named "Hapsburg", stop.

Interestingly, I read that the Riesling x Silvaner cross could not be called Rieslaner because Dr. Frankenstein -- or whoever did the hybridization -- had not clearly stated that it was that exact cross that was used in the genesis. (Grapes don't cross-breed the same way each time, apparently.)

You called them Germanic whites but your TBA was mahogany colored, so I looked them up in google images and saw that only Siegerrebe, of all the ones mentioned, is dark skinned, so must be the only source of that color.
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I had assumed the color came from oxidation but that was just a guess.
 
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
originally posted by .sasha:
Overnoy.
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Only if you're also posting it on eBob, WLDB, WineBerserkers, CellarTracker, eGullet and other venues, all at once!

Otherwise, give it up. I mean, damn, it's only Boredeaux.
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Could someone explain any of this section of the thread to me? How did Overnoy get in here, what does it have anything to do with Sasha's unaccountable mysteriosity, etc. etc.?
 
I think .sasha was offering Overnoy as an example of a good wine that got mentioned in web-print and now is hard to get.

The mysteriosity, well, that's always been there.
 
Marqus de Riscal never reconditions older wines. That's why in tastings they use those Porto-style hot clips or scissors or whatever they're called to neatly behead old bottles without having to touch the cork. I think your '25 is the real thing. I don't know any red wines that live longer than Rioja - as our recent vertical of CVNE Imperial once again corroborated.
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
I think .sasha was offering Overnoy as an example of a good wine that got mentioned in web-print and now is hard to get.

The mysteriosity, well, that's always been there.
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Yeah, the sudden cultish difficulty of finding Overnoy is also mysterious. Did Parker rate it 100 while I was looking the other way?
 
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

1925 Marques de Riscal Rioja Reserva
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Thanks for taking the time to tell us about this. Thrilling to hear.
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Amazingly, both Jeff and Brad tasted this too over the last two years.
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Sure, but I'm going to believe Brad?
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You were there. What'd you think? I know Gilman liked it. So did Manuel, though he was suspicious that it showed too young.
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Always my issue with old Spanish wines - They show so young that I can't help but suspect them. At this point, I know that they can't possibly have all been fraudulent (I used to run a nearly all Spanish program, years ago), but the suspicion lingers.
 
originally posted by VS:
Marqus de Riscal never reconditions older wines. That's why in tastings they use those Porto-style hot clips or scissors or whatever they're called to neatly behead old bottles without having to touch the cork. I think your '25 is the real thing. I don't know any red wines that live longer than Rioja - as our recent vertical of CVNE Imperial once again corroborated.
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One of the most eye-opening lunches I've been to highlighted CVNE & Contino, with a vertical going back to that 1937 accidental dessert wine. The wines from the 50's drank fresh as the 80's.
 
originally posted by VS:
Marqus de Riscal never reconditions older wines. That's why in tastings they use those Porto-style hot clips or scissors or whatever they're called to neatly behead old bottles without having to touch the cork. I think your '25 is the real thing. I don't know any red wines that live longer than Rioja - as our recent vertical of CVNE Imperial once again corroborated.
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Well, I'll have to try another sometime!

No intent to point a finger at Riscal. I have a generic worry about the provenance of old wines these days, and the more glorious the more I worry unless I know where the bottle's been.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by VS:
Marqus de Riscal never reconditions older wines. That's why in tastings they use those Porto-style hot clips or scissors or whatever they're called to neatly behead old bottles without having to touch the cork. I think your '25 is the real thing. I don't know any red wines that live longer than Rioja - as our recent vertical of CVNE Imperial once again corroborated.
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Well, I'll have to try another sometime!

No intent to point a finger at Riscal. I have a generic worry about the provenance of old wines these days, and the more glorious the more I worry unless I know where the bottle's been.
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Well, I told you the story of where it's been. Granted, I have no true way of verifying, though I did check up on as much that I could of what was told to me and it did check out. If you recall, this was part of the batch of stuff I got directly from Spain.

I wasn't suspicious of the bottle at all, though I do have another for scientific purposes.
 
Some of the older riojas were bottled very late, as is the case with the old Ygay. Spreaking of 1925, it was first sold in 1973, after 8 months in wood deposits, 8 years in new/ 1 year old oak and 33 years in old american oak...

BTW, we had the fortune of drinking a bottle of the 1925 Riscal at our Xmas dinner and it was very similar to the one you describe though perhaps a bit more advanced
 
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