Joues de cochons & north Rhone 2000 at the tgjp

P

pab

pierre-alain benoit
Hello,
We made a great dinner at the tgjp in Paris last friday with north Rhone 2000 (Tunnel, Jamet & Allemand), Sancerre Cotat (Francois & Pascal Cotat) and a daube de joues de cochons.
See www.tgjp.com
Ask any questions on the forum and I will try to answer.
Best regards
pierre-alain benoit
 
Do you find all the Tunnel wines modern and oaky, or is it just the Prestige bottle that is so afflicted?

I love your notes, but always feel a little jealous when I read the prices.
F Cotat 10 euros, Bernard Faurie Hermitage Assemblage 22 euros.
Sigh.
 
I've tasted the Tunnel's Cornas and Saint-Joseph since the 1998 vintage until the 2006 vintage at the March d'Ampuis.
Clearly, it's a technical expression of the north Rhone with fruit and oak. It can be nice to drink very young but I've always been disapointed with mature vintage.
About the prices, it's the "original" one when I bought the bootles at the estate.
Best regards
pierre-alain benoit
 
There was a big brouhaha here about Tunnel maybe a year ago in which Claude said he knew that the wine was unwooded. Although like you, Pierre, I have noticed wood on the wine, I have, and I took it inconsistently, liked the wine. Claude made me think that I wasn't being inconsistent. I tend to agree with you in sensing wood, but since I have no direct knowledge of elevage, I'm unsure.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
There was a big brouhaha here about Tunnel maybe a year ago in which Claude said he knew that the wine was unwooded. Although like you, Pierre, I have noticed wood on the wine, I have, and I took it inconsistently, liked the wine. Claude made me think that I wasn't being inconsistent. I tend to agree with you in sensing wood, but since I have no direct knowledge of elevage, I'm unsure.
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If by "unwooded" you mean the wine sees no wood, whatsoever, that is not what I said. It goes into 4-6 year-old casks of various sizes (Livingstone-Learmonth is in accord), but sees little or no new wood. In fact, Livingstone-Learmonth specifically says that Stephane Robert is not a lover of new oak. However, Robert uses about 40% stems, which many people seem to often confuse with new oak, not just for Robert, but elsewhere in the Northern Rhne, too. And Syrah is so sensitive to oak that even 4-6 year casks can on occasion give some impression of new oak.
 
originally posted by Marc D:
Do you find all the Tunnel wines modern and oaky, or is it just the Prestige bottle that is so afflicted?
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Marc -- See my comment above. No special treatment for the Vin Noir/Cuve Prestige, just a special selection, mainly from old vines. Livingstone-Learmonth writes of Robert's Cornas: "his wine, while clean and modern in its young texture, is capable of expressing terroir if drunk from five years old on."
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
originally posted by Marc D:
Do you find all the Tunnel wines modern and oaky, or is it just the Prestige bottle that is so afflicted?
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Marc -- See my comment above. No special treatment for the Vin Noir/Cuve Prestige, just a special selection, mainly from old vines. Livingstone-Learmonth writes of Robert's Cornas: "his wine, while clean and modern in its young texture, is capable of expressing terroir if drunk from five years old on."
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Thanks.

What do you think of the Cornas from Vincent Paris? I really liked one I tried recently, the Granite 60. The local distributor described it as being "modern", I guess in regards to the fruit, but I didn't find it oaky.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
There was a big brouhaha here about Tunnel maybe a year ago in which Claude said he knew that the wine was unwooded. Although like you, Pierre, I have noticed wood on the wine, I have, and I took it inconsistently, liked the wine. Claude made me think that I wasn't being inconsistent. I tend to agree with you in sensing wood, but since I have no direct knowledge of elevage, I'm unsure.
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Hello,
A part of the vinyards Robert's come from Marcel Juge.
I've got 2001 cuvee SC from Juge and opened one yesterday.
It's a singing wine : freshness, balanced, profound...
The Stephane Robert don't play absolutely in the same category.
About wood, the new one insn't especially the worst. With a 4/5 years old bad cask, you can make a woody wine !
Best regards
pierre-alain benoit
ps for Claude : I drunk on monday a beautifull Tempier 2007 (the regular). Hope you will right and it will aged like the "before-Ravier period" !
 
Claude,

Unwooded was a bad word. I meant unmarked by oak. I would take the elevage you describe as unlikely to mark the wine and am happy to take your diagnosis for what I taste.
 
Marc -- I like Paris's wine quite a bit, but I agree that it is modern (largely a question of texture) -- but in a nonperjorative use of the word. This change of texture seems to be the trend at Cornas these days. Very little Cornas these days fits what I would call traditional Cornas (i.e., the wine that I knew from the 1980s) any more.

pab -- I, too, hope that the Tempiers will continue to age as before, but Ravier says he doesn't really know if that will be the case. The bottles that I've had recently from the beginning of his term do seem to be holding and developing well as they near 10 years. But it's still a long way to 25 and 30 years. On the other hand, I'm no longer at an age where I put wines aside to drink 25-30 years down the road, so I have no personal stake in the matter.

Yes, Robert is very different from Juge. But not all his vines are from Juge. Being at the southern end of the appellation, Juge was on different soil from the rest of Cornas, which made his wines lighter and finer. That's lost when you blend with wines from other areas (and of course Robert's working methods are different).
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Marc -- I like Paris's wine quite a bit, but I agree that it is modern (largely a question of texture) -- but in a nonperjorative use of the word. This change of texture seems to be the trend at Cornas these days. Very little Cornas these days fits what I would call traditional Cornas (i.e., the wine that I knew from the 1980s) any more.
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When you refer to modern Cornas in terms of textures, would you say they are following in the path or style of Allemand's wines?

Are the mid nineties wines from Verset a good example still of those traditional Cornas wines from the 1980s? I unfortunately haven't ever had the chance to drink Cornas from the 80s so I am trying to figure out a reference for myself.
 
originally posted by Marc D:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Marc -- I like Paris's wine quite a bit, but I agree that it is modern (largely a question of texture) -- but in a nonperjorative use of the word. This change of texture seems to be the trend at Cornas these days. Very little Cornas these days fits what I would call traditional Cornas (i.e., the wine that I knew from the 1980s) any more.
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When you refer to modern Cornas in terms of textures, would you say they are following in the path or style of Allemand's wines?
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That would be my guess. Allemand is an inspiration for many people making syrah.

He long ago eclipsed Chave as my leading light in Northern Rhone syrah as a bottle of 1995 Reynard recapitulated with great eloquence.

Are the mid nineties wines from Verset a good example still of those traditional Cornas wines from the 1980s? I unfortunately haven't ever had the chance to drink Cornas from the 80s so I am trying to figure out a reference for myself.
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I think any vintage up to 1999 of Verset (unfortunately the last I own and can comment on first hand) would give you the archetypal experience of traditional Cornas.. I find the 1995 to be a particularly stunning example of great Cornas. Every now and then you can pick up bottles of 1988 and 1991. I wouldn't hesitate to grab either, although I think the 1991 is holding up better.
 
originally posted by Marc D:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Marc -- I like Paris's wine quite a bit, but I agree that it is modern (largely a question of texture) -- but in a nonperjorative use of the word. This change of texture seems to be the trend at Cornas these days. Very little Cornas these days fits what I would call traditional Cornas (i.e., the wine that I knew from the 1980s) any more.
Click to expand...

When you refer to modern Cornas in terms of textures, would you say they are following in the path or style of Allemand's wines?

Are the mid nineties wines from Verset a good example still of those traditional Cornas wines from the 1980s? I unfortunately haven't ever had the chance to drink Cornas from the 80s so I am trying to figure out a reference for myself.
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Further than Allemand -- much more polished texture.

Verset is classic, older Clape, Juge, Michel, some smaller guys you've probably never heard of. I haven't had Rossenthal's new guy yet and don't know anything about him, but the fact that Neal took him on makes him of interest.
 
Actually, the 1988 Barge is interesting because that is when Gilles Barge headed off in the new direction; but he learned his lesson and has fast retreated by the early 1990s (unlike many others in Cte-Rtie).
 
Further than Allemand -- much more polished texture.

Verset is classic, older Clape, Juge, Michel, some smaller guys you've probably never heard of. I haven't had Rossenthal's new guy yet and don't know anything about him, but the fact that Neal took him on makes him of interest.
Where does Perraud fall into the mix? A couple older bottles recently appeared locally from a purchased cellar.
Thanks
Brian
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Sorry, I don't know the Perraud wines (acttually, I think it was Michel-Perraud). It was a negociant business that I believe no longer exists.
 
Claude, is Rosenthal's new producer Lionnet? It seems to be "Domaine Lionnet" a rebirth of the old Lionnet, not Jean/Rochepertuis and I guess it's bio, etc. Looks interesting.
 
originally posted by mlawton:
Claude, is Rosenthal's new producer Lionnet? It seems to be "Domaine Lionnet" a rebirth of the old Lionnet, not Jean/Rochepertuis and I guess it's bio, etc. Looks interesting.
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It is Lionnet, but not the same as the old Jean Lionnet/Domaine de Rochepertuis. The old Lionnet's vines have reverted to Mathieu Barret who works without sulfur except for a little at bottling.
 
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