Raisins Gaulois

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
...Chaucer [is] far harder for a speaker of contemporary English to read, say, than French Arthurian romances for a speaker of contemporary French.
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A great discussion you guys are engaged in here; love reading this. But the above quoted isn't true, to my senses.
 
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
...Chaucer [is] far harder for a speaker of contemporary English to read, say, than French Arthurian romances for a speaker of contemporary French.
Click to expand...

A great discussion you guys are engaged in here; love reading this. But the above quoted isn't true, to my senses.
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Really? I can decipher Chretien de Troyes, but I needed an extensive glossary for Chaucer. I'm currently, slowly working my way through Michelet, who quotes pretty extensively from contemporaneous sources and once I got to about 1200, I could pretty much decipher them. As another instance, Spenser was roughly contemporary to Ronsard. Both of them are readable for me, but I'm guessing if my French were up to my English, Ronsard would be moreso.
 
Ok, I did a bit of reading on the GVShift, and I can now parse the professor's phrase that it hasn't finished shifting, a bit better. So it of course refers to the Neo-Grammarian idea of the regularity of sound changes. And since most of the vowels have become more forward with the GVS, it is expected that those that haven't yet done so will over time. Of course, "sound laws" (as they used to be called) aren't anymore considered so law-like since exceptions are found. It seems that my professor was a fairly strict Neo-grammarian - usually linguists tend to agree with their hypotheses on a general level, but use them more as a guideline since the practicalities of language change are often messier than what the phrase "sound laws" would imply. But anyway, all the sources I saw did mention it continuing to the 18th Century.

Back to the original post, however, I opened another of these Lapierres tonight. I think it is finally becoming as lovable as the '07 was: it is losing some of that darkness of fruit and is becoming brighter. Even a little time has done much good for this. This is one of the most joyful wines I have had in a long time.
 
originally posted by Eden Mylunsch:
-Eden (but then there are those of us who reckon that the freak from Accokeek Maryland named Danny Gatton was the most gifted Tele-slinger of all time: http://bit.ly/aEfNNo)
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ah, Danny Gatton - saw him live several times in small venues, including the "coffeehouse" at american university around the time "red-necked jazz" came out.

Eden, you constantly take me down memory lane, musically speaking! Did you know the band "Sharpie Clark"?
 
I also thought the '09 showed well and it was much more like the '07...although, I also admit I liked the regular Morgon too.

I was worried about ripeness and alcohol, but it turned out OK...
 
originally posted by Otto Nieminen:
Ok, I did a bit of reading on the GVShift, and I can now parse the professor's phrase that it hasn't finished shifting, a bit better. So it of course refers to the Neo-Grammarian idea of the regularity of sound changes. And since most of the vowels have become more forward with the GVS, it is expected that those that haven't yet done so will over time. Of course, "sound laws" (as they used to be called) aren't anymore considered so law-like since exceptions are found. It seems that my professor was a fairly strict Neo-grammarian - usually linguists tend to agree with their hypotheses on a general level, but use them more as a guideline since the practicalities of language change are often messier than what the phrase "sound laws" would imply. But anyway, all the sources I saw did mention it continuing to the 18th Century.

Back to the original post, however, I opened another of these Lapierres tonight. I think it is finally becoming as lovable as the '07 was: it is losing some of that darkness of fruit and is becoming brighter. Even a little time has done much good for this. This is one of the most joyful wines I have had in a long time.
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So that people know what we are talking about the pronunciation of vowels changed from the 15th century so that the i in night would have been pronounced by Chaucer "ee" as in sweet rather than as it is now. Further, reason would have been pronounced as raisin. And, I find, that Otto is right that the end date is usually placed in the 18th century. It is also the case that the event is distinguished from pronunciation drift by its speed and regularity and most of it occurred within the 15th century--hence the classification of Renaissance English as early modern. Warning: this all still comes from a very old textbook.

I understand this event to have been if not unique in English, at least not a common feature of linguistic history. It is, at any rate, responsible for many of the orthographic oddities of English since spelling started to become regularized in English in the 16th century and thus words were spelled to represent older pronunciations. It's not always a matter of vowels. In Chaucer, the gh spelling indicated a pronunciation of a sound like the German or Hebrew one we indicate in English with ch.

But I'm curious. Am I correct about that? Do other European languages experience this phenomenon?
 
Reason pronounced like raisin sounds like Cockney, so maybe Cockney retained some of the old pronunciations, or maybe it's just a coincidence.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:


But I'm curious. Am I correct about that? Do other European languages experience this phenomenon?
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I think not, Prof. At least, the GVS is the reason commonly cited for the divergence of pronunciation of vowels in English with other Latinate and Germanic languages.

Mark Lipton
 
Actually, my guess would have been that gettin' above one's raisin' would be a class reference to how one was raised. Something like "don't be actin' first class, if you're actually white trash....".

Just my two yen.

The '09 Raisin Gaulois on the other hand certainly rises above it's '08 raisin cousin, imo. The '09 is action packed and popcorn munching fun, but it has grip and tension as well. Wonderful chilled, I'll have to stock up on this to help us slog thru the impending humid, radioactive summer.
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
Raisin the barActually, my guess would have been that gettin' above one's raisin' would be a class reference to how one was raised. Something like "don't be actin' first class, if you're actually white trash...."..
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That was how it was explained to a room full of academics the other week, by the one token Southerner there. I had never heard the expression and thought it was hilarious, but mainly because I kept thinking of raisins the fruit. I guess it makes more sense if you consider it a contorted reference to how one was 'raised'.
 
Last night there was a dinner at my son's school and I couldn't face whatever wine would be available, so I took a Tupac of 2012 Raisins Gaulois, both for ease of drinking and ease of opening. The first bottle had a CO2 tingle that I didn't remember from other renditions, and lovely, bright acidity, perhaps given a push by the fizz. The second had zero CO2, and seemed less acidic and lively, though still glou glou. Almost a different wine. Waddya know, screwcaps can be as variable as corks (assuming these two were close to each other in the bottling assembly line).
 
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