why on God's green Earth...

S

Scott Frank

Scott Frank
do producers insist on using those shit nomo corks? i'm talking to you, awesome french "natural" producers.

stop it.

please.
 
My complaint is the wines often fall apart after about a year from bottling. I don't know how anyone justifies using them. The response I have heard from a couple producers is 1) they are trying to avoid TCA and 2) their wines are meant to be drunk within a year. So you avoid having corked bottles and supposedly solve that problem with a closure the kills the wine in a fairly rapid fashion? As for trying to dictate when people drink your wine by putting a time bomb in it... fail.

All the trials we've done with bottling under well sourced cork that's sampled for TCA vs synthetic corks overwhelmingly favors real cork. All the wines we bottled under synthetic started falling apart at 8-12 months on average. Much longer than that and they just got profoundly worse. Meanwhile corked wines are a rarity with our current supplier/methods. (Leaving aside the fact cork is a renewable, sustainable resource and synthetic corks are a petroleum product.)

As a buyer, I worked with Dard et Ribo, a producer I love, but had more off bottles than any wine I've ever worked with. We're talking 2 out of 3 bad. This was with the current vintage at that time!

Just this week, I but several bottle of Clos Roche Blanche Sauvignon No. 2 and the store hadn't rotated their stock so I ended up with a couple of 2007s mixed in with the 2008s. To no surprise, the 2007s were dull, lifeless and over the hill. They weren't even close to how the wines tasted just several months ago.
 
Ok, but corked wines are not rare.

I turn back and won't serve 1-4 bottles every evening at the resto. Last night there were two. If we get through a service with no corked bottles it is a surprise. The other night we had 3 bottles of the same wine all show cork taint. That sort of thing can put a crimp in the service flow.
 
Scott, as you say you have trial evidence, have you examined screwtops? It is said that the Aussies have good long-term success with them.
 
Scott, what do you mean by "off bottles" of Dard & Ribo? And do you think that is a closure problem or simply the result of working with a winery whose wines are extremely variable to begin with?

I've had both the 2006 Crozes and St Jo Rouges in the past two weeks and they were delicious (albeit stored very cold since release).
 
The stories I hear suggest that reds hold up longer under the synthetic corks than whites, apparently being somewhat less dependent on SO2 for survival. The synthetics, I'm told, adsorb SO2, leaving the whites vulnerable.
 
It's worth repeating and repeating, I guess: they were never designed for more than a couple of years, at best. The oxtrans is extremely variable even over the very short term, and they almost all fail sooner rather than later. But hey, if people choose to disbelieve the guy who invented them (not, obviously, me...since there are enough non-oldsters around that probably don't remember drinking and discussing porn with the guy who did), I guess they're welcome to do so.
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Scott, as you say you have trial evidence, have you examined screwtops? It is said that the Aussies have good long-term success with them.
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I think it was Kumeu River that I read went back and did their whole library of wines with screwcaps. Leaving aside the problems caused by pulling the original cork and then putting the wines in screwcap-able bottles, it amazed me that anyone had that much faith in the long term performance of screwcaps.

Jamie Goode compares screwcaps to other closures in his book "The Science of Wine" (p. 160-165). Further, on pages 127-128 he addresses the possibility that the tighter seal they provide encourages reduction - no reliable studies as yet to back up that notion but it seems plausible for certain types of wine and especially those with considerable dissolved sulpher.

Steve Edmunds uses screwcaps on some wines and not others - perhaps he can chime in on why.

I use cork for my syrah as I intend it to be aged medium to long term. I have yet to make a decision on what I will close my pinot with - probably cork, if my intent stays the same and the wine gives me reason to believe it will age.

Best, Jim
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
Ok, but corked wines are not rare.

I turn back and won't serve 1-4 bottles every evening at the resto. Last night there were two. If we get through a service with no corked bottles it is a surprise. The other night we had 3 bottles of the same wine all show cork taint. That sort of thing can put a crimp in the service flow.
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Well aware of that. I was saying they've become a rarity for us. It's definitely a problem at large but I believe it can be mitigated with proper diligence. But rather than debate the merits of cork I meant to draw attention to the shortcomings of synthetics. Particularly nomacorc.

It's well and good the guy that designed them only meant for them to last two years, but it's my experience they often don't make it half that time. Regardless of the intent a producer has for a wines consumption I think it presents a greater risk than natural cork. You don't have enough control over when I wine is opened once it leaves the winery.
 
It's well and good the guy that designed them only meant for them to last two years
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Let's not over-specify what I wrote, 'K?

Regardless of the intent a producer has for a wines consumption I think it presents a greater risk than natural cork.
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But the "intent" is rather obviously one in which cork is undesirable but something that does not look like cork (could be screwcap, could be something else) is deemed commercially impossible. See, for example, France. I don't like it, and it made me drink a whole bunch of wines well before their time and dump out a bunch of wines (something like two cases of Texier, for example) that I didn't realize were under synthetic until far too late. But now I pull capsules if I'm suspicious. It's not like I'm flipping these wines.

Jim, Michael Brajkovich is a true believer, so much so that the first time I visited (pre- the closure retrofit), he pulled a library magnum of a chardonnay (fantastic, by the way) and was unable to find a corkscrew to open it. I don't remember if it was Sue Courtney or me who supplied the necessary equipment.
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Scott, as you say you have trial evidence, have you examined screwtops? It is said that the Aussies have good long-term success with them.
Click to expand...

I'm not hung up on screw caps. I think they fine for now. Ultimately it present a bit of philosophical problem given you have a closure made out of aluminum and plastic, resources that may not always be readily available or desirable.
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Scott, as you say you have trial evidence, have you examined screwtops? It is said that the Aussies have good long-term success with them.
Click to expand...

I think it was Kumeu River that I read went back and did their whole library of wines with screwcaps. Leaving aside the problems caused by pulling the original cork and then putting the wines in screwcap-able bottles, it amazed me that anyone had that much faith in the long term performance of screwcaps.

Jamie Goode compares screwcaps to other closures in his book "The Science of Wine" (p. 160-165). Further, on pages 127-128 he addresses the possibility that the tighter seal they provide encourages reduction - no reliable studies as yet to back up that notion but it seems plausible for certain types of wine and especially those with considerable dissolved sulpher.

Steve Edmunds uses screwcaps on some wines and not others - perhaps he can chime in on why.

I use cork for my syrah as I intend it to be aged medium to long term. I have yet to make a decision on what I will close my pinot with - probably cork, if my intent stays the same and the wine gives me reason to believe it will age.

Best, Jim
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You're the last of the riverboat gamblers. You did a good job with the syrah, I've only tasted a handful of CA pinots that were worth drinking. Wish you luck.
 
originally posted by Lou Kessler:
You're the last of the riverboat gamblers. You did a good job with the syrah, I've only tasted a handful of CA pinots that were worth drinking. Wish you luck.
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Lou,
At this age, gamble is most of what I got.
Best, Jim
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
originally posted by Lou Kessler:
You're the last of the riverboat gamblers. You did a good job with the syrah, I've only tasted a handful of CA pinots that were worth drinking. Wish you luck.
Click to expand...

Lou,
At this age, gamble is most of what I got.
Best, Jim
Click to expand...
he's calling your bluff, Lou!
 
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