Antipodean rieslings

Y

Yixin

Yixin
Not sure what to make of these wines so looking for some help here. It's been about 4 or 5 years since I seriously made an effort to drink some Oz and NZ riesling, and on the recent showings it might be another 4 or 5 years before I do so again.

A 2004 West Cape Howe Mt. Barker Riesling was wholly unremarkable except for a rubber scent I associate with screwcapped-induced reductiveness. It took about a ady to blew off, but by then the acid had softened a bit too much. The 2006 Neudorf Riesling Brightwater was leaner but also (I suspect) sweeter, and I found little of interest by the second glass or so. I've had maybe about 15-20 different rieslings in the lower alcohol style from the cooler areas in the last month, but haven't found anything compelling yet.

It is nice to see screwcaps on these wines, though, as I'm long overdue for a run of cork taint. By my count I've gone about fifty wines this month without TCA issues (and while I'm no Lisa I am fairly sensitive), so I'm expecting all my Burgundies to taste of wet cardboard.
 
Rumor has it that many antipodean screwcappers pretreat with copper to avoid reduction, but also strip the wine of flavor.

I don't drink enough to have a personal opinion.
 
My on-the-ground tastings of NZ rieslings are now four vintages out of date, alas, but almost all of them were under screwcap then anyway, and flavor-stripping wasn't noticeable (to the extent that such could be judged, which means at wineries where I tasted from both tank/barrel and bottle). The rieslings that tasted as if they could be flavor-stripped were from wineries whose entire lineups tasted that way, no matter the closure (and usually the heavier red grapes were still under cork), so I don't think copper can shoulder all the blame.

While retaining respect for the people who are pushing this story (White and, I guess, Gilman, though I'm not aware that he's been doing years of extensive NZ/Australian riesling tasting, or really even any, outside of his general broadside against screwcaps; please correct me if I'm wrong), I think there's a lot of thunder and lightning being generated over a pretty small evidential set. Regarding the possibility of reduction, there's actually evidence for this, though it too is an overblown story compared to what the literature actually shows. (Again, I think you can thank one journalist for this.) I admit I have a hard time understanding how on one hand it can be asserted that there is widespread reduction in wines under screwcap, but on the other hand there is rampant copper overuse to combat that reduction, and yet both are claimed...frequently by the exact same person, occasionally within the same article or interview...without addressing the apparent contradiction.

All that said, the copper additions are certainly worth of careful scrutiny, and there is evidence that some wineries are abusing it. Absent widespread testing, which to my knowledge has not happened (or at least has not been publicized), I think it's irresponsible to presume beyond that.

Yixin: I'm not sure what's going on at Neudorf, but I think they've been underperforming vis--vis their reputation for a while now. Russell Briggs always insisted that Nelson (and parts of Canterbury, though not necessarily the Waipara) were going to be big for riesling, and he would know better than I would, but for me the best NZ rieslings are still coming from the known names in the Waipara, Marlborough, and to a lesser extent Martinborough and the C.O.
 
I don't get out much so this is the first time I've heard about the copper treatments. But it just strikes me as moving the problem around - presumably the sulfur just becomes bound?

And to some extent this is my complaint with some of the Semillons under screwcap. The reds have been less affected but I'm not a big fan of what I've had so far.
 
I have no doubt you two have been tasting plenty of low end German stuff from some of the best producers, and by now no-so-low end stuff from Austria, under SC.

Are you telling me you are actually enjoying the shit ?

You live in a much happier world then.
 
originally posted by .sasha:
I have no doubt you two have been tasting plenty of low end German stuff from some of the best producers, and by now no-so-low end stuff from Austria, under SC.

Are you telling me you are actually enjoying the shit ?

You live in a much happier world then.
Click to expand...

I can't say that it was intentional, but the advent of "threaded closures" (in the 21st Century there is a euphemism for everything) seems to have greatly increased the sales of aerators. We use them all the time now, especially for screwcapped high-end Gruners and Rieslings.

It's a brave new world; what can we do but live in it?
 
originally posted by Yixin:
I don't get out much so this is the first time I've heard about the copper treatments. But it just strikes me as moving the problem around - presumably the sulfur just becomes bound?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I follow, but to take a stab, the sulfur that is ordinarily referred to as free/bound is sulfur dioxide or sulfite, SO2 or HSO3-.

The sulfur I'm talking about is in a different oxidation state, RSR or RSSR or RSH or RS=OR, or like that. I don't know how to call it free or bound. Copper reacts with many of these to form insoluble precipitates that can be filtered out of the wine. Some of those things are stinky (H2S), and some contribute interestingly to wines, depending on a zillion things.
 
And to some extent this is my complaint with some of the Semillons under screwcap. The reds have been less affected but I'm not a big fan of what I've had so far.
Click to expand...
We get approximately one semillon, under cap or any other closure, here in Boston, so I can't claim much experience here. If I can lay my hands on some Vat 1, which I think is now under cap?, and let it age long enough, maybe I can contribute to this discussion.

Ian: no, that would be clich.
 
So the copper won't react with the SO2? I thought that was the point of adding copper? Or more precisely, I thought adding copper would allow one to decrease the sulfur dose at bottling even more.

I've had some well-preserved Oz rieslings under screwcap but they weren't as interesting as a 20 year old Riesling could (should?) be.

I think Zilliken's Butterfly is very good in the low-end idiom. Have I bought any? No, and likely never will.
 
originally posted by Yixin:
So the copper won't react with the SO2? I thought that was the point of adding copper? Or more precisely, I thought adding copper would allow one to decrease the sulfur dose at bottling even more.
Click to expand...

Nope, SO2 doesn't interact with copper metal. Only (as SFJoe states) stinky mercaptans and sulfides will be removed.

Mark Lipton
 
You can tell I'm no chemist. But would adding copper allow one to reduce sulfur dosage (which I think is what someone told me)? And asking that question, I can see how ill-informed my question about SO2 reacting with copper was.

Better tonight - a 2006 Gibbston Valley Riesling. Still a real stink when first opened though. More intensity, a bit more glycerin and I suspect RS, which all helps. Sometimes I do wish for a really bone-dry Riesling, and have difficulty finding one.

Also had some Bordeaux over the weekend; part of the scene in HK, I guess. '94 Grand-Puy-Lacoste was mute like a brick wall, '98 Branaire-Ducru strangely marked by brett from 2 bottles. And also a lovely '83 Warres from half-bottle.

For .sasha - I compensated by opening another bottle of '94 Dr. Loosen WS Auslese. Finger-licking good.
 
Felton Road, Pegasus Bay, Blackenbrook, Dry River, Glover's, Fromm. That should do, for now, from NZ.
 
I don't see any automatic connection between SO2 and copper processes, but maybe one of the winemakers could chime in.

Copper treatment is such a drastic thing to do to the flavors of a wine that it is hard to imagine doing it for the comparatively minor goal of reducing SO2 addition. Also, the amounts of copper used are rather small and I don't think they'd allow a big difference in SO2.

But I yield to actual winemakers on this one.
 
Didn't enjoy a 2008 Pegasus Bay. Similarly with Dry River. Thought Fromm's reds were better but haven't had the 2009s.
 
Which Pegasus Bay? There are four, not to mention the wines they've made for others. Which Dry River? Which of the 4-5 Fromms?
 
originally posted by Yixin:

I think Zilliken's Butterfly is very good in the low-end idiom.
Click to expand...
That's actually one of the ones that's usually impressed me less than most. But many are now bottling Kabinetts as well as QbAs with screwcap (e.g., F. Haag, Lieser, von Hvel, Loosen, Knstler, Leitz, Bassermann, Wirsching, etc., etc.) Mnchhof/Eymael is going up at least to Auslese in screwcap and Gunderloch does the whole line through TBA in screwcap. Fritz Hasselbach of Gunderloch told me that he used to do a separate cork line for certain German customers, but they have gone over, too -- one of the more outspoken resisters returned a shipment of wines closed with cork and asked for screwcap. OTOH, Schfer-Frhlich, after several years of screwcap, has reverted to cork.
 
originally posted by Thor:
Which Pegasus Bay? There are four, not to mention the wines they've made for others. Which Dry River? Which of the 4-5 Fromms?
Click to expand...

Oh, the basic stuff. I don't get paid to write about them.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top